Tammy Klotz [00:00:00]:
Empathy and accountability are partners, right? And if you use empathy effectively, that accountability is going to come home to you 100% of the time. If people treat them as adversaries or opposites, that is where things are going to break down. I literally was just going through a conversation, and somebody was like, yeah, but can people still be held accountable if you’re practicing empathy? And I was like, yeah. And then we had to talk through that. Right? Because I think in some people’s mind, it is a one or the other, and that’s definitely not the case.

Karissa Breen [00:00:53]:
Joining me now is Tammy Klotz, cybersecurity and IT executive and author of the book Leading with Empathy and Grace. And today we’re discussing just that. So, Tammy, thanks for joining and welcome.

Tammy Klotz [00:01:05]:
Thanks for having me, Karissa. I’m happy to be here.

Karissa Breen [00:01:08]:
Okay, so the word empathy. Now, recently hearing a lot about the word empathy, you gotta have empathy. And a lot of big podcasters are talking about empathy. And the same sort of word perhaps is recycled a lot. But given the book that you’ve authored, I really want to maybe get into your mind, define your version, how you see it around the word empathy.

Tammy Klotz [00:01:30]:
So for me, empathy is very much about being intentional. And that means choosing to, you know, sit down and listen and truly understand somebody else’s perspective, listen to what their experiences are before reacting or leading based upon, you know, perhaps assumptions that are incorrect or invalid. And really, again, connecting with the human being that you’re having a conversation with to understand where they’re coming from and really what is at the root of either the issue, the concern, the conversation, the topic, so that you can really kind of wrap your arms around that and get into, you know, the other person’s movie, I like to say, to really understand what’s driving them, again, either because of a positive or negative situation, because it makes it much more relatable, and then it also allows you to start to build that foundation of trust so that from this point forward, the conversations are starting with that foundation of trust. And the conversation is just going to go so much better, so much, perhaps more differently than it would have had that time not been taken.

Karissa Breen [00:02:49]:
You made an interesting point around connecting with the human, would you say? Given nowadays and depending on. And I don’t. I don’t do this to people, but there are folks out there that are on their phone and you’re trying to talk to them on their phone. I find that very distracting. I even see people doing it in meetings, which is beyond belief. But do you think as well that because of our phones we’re not really listening to people? And I mean, look, I listen to people for a living and talking to people. I’m not sitting here on my phone when I’m interviewing someone. And I think that I can tell as an interviewer and as podcast host and as a journalist if someone is distracted.

Karissa Breen [00:03:25]:
So would you say that just given the times that we’re in, everyone’s got their phone 24 7, it’s providing perhaps a missed opportunity to really connect with that person?

Tammy Klotz [00:03:35]:
Absolutely, 100%. One of the things that I say when, you know, leading my teams, especially when I have an international team that is geographically disparate, first, that I don’t have an opportunity to, you know, spend any sort of one on one face to face conversations with that individual. If you are not 100% fully present in that conversation, you are doing that individual a disservice. If you are scheduling time to have a one on one with those individuals, they deserve 100% of your attention. Because if you don’t give it to them one, like you said, they’re going to know, right? Because the, there’s going to be, you know, awkward pauses or you’ll, they’re going to ask you to repeat something because they were not listening. And in the times that we live on now, it’s so easy to be distracted by, you know, a text that’s coming through or teams or Zoom or whatever kind of instant messaging platform you’re using that’s popping up. And it’s just not fair to the individual that you’re having the conversation with. I witnessed a conversation where one of my direct reports was actually delivering a pretty sensitive and confidential compensation message to another employee.

Tammy Klotz [00:04:52]:
And it was obvious that the individual delivering the message was doing something else in the background. And I was like, what are you doing? You can’t, you know, this is probably the most important conversation you need to have with an employee. You cannot be doing anything else, like accept being focused on that. So, yeah, I mean, it is the sign of the times. It’s the, you know, the society that we live in right now. But it goes back to what I said initially, Karissa, is with regards to being intentional and being present. And as a leader in any organization, the people that you’re working with deserve that from you. And if you give it to them, you’re going to get it back from them as well, when do you think.

Karissa Breen [00:05:36]:
We probably lost a lot of that being intentional and being present? Probably when we were so connected to our mobile, sorry, cell phones. When do you think that people started to perhaps lose touch of being in the moment?

Tammy Klotz [00:05:55]:
I think it’s as technology has advanced, right, there’s definitely different parts of the world that do a much better job at being truly disconnected, whether that be when they’re on vac with their family, whether that be, you know, when you know, you are running a meeting or leading a meeting in those situations. So I think as technology has advanced and allows us to be in this state of almost instant gratification, and if you look at the generation, the most recent generation coming through their secondary level schooling and education, it’s always been this, I can get an answer immediately. So the ability to really pause and have to wait for something is foreign in some cases, right? So while technology is good, technology also will have negative impact. And I say that about any new piece of technology that comes out. Obviously, AI is all over the place with everybody. And I liken that to when the Internet became a thing. Right? It’s here to stay. We can figure out how to use it productively and there are going to be others who are going to use it for harm.

Tammy Klotz [00:07:11]:
And that’s just the reality. It’s that yin and yang of any situation. So, you know, I think as technology has advanced and that ability to, you know, be connected at all times, that is when we started to lose sight of that human interaction. And that’s why we have to practice so hard at being intentional. It’s something that should be natural for us.

Karissa Breen [00:07:36]:
So do you think if we go back in time where we as a human race, more empathetic before technology really came on the scene and became very dominant as it is today, or do you think that’s a perceived sort of perception of reality, whereas maybe we just sort of the same in terms of our levels of empathy, but it’s just sort of changed now because we can, in front of someone, be quite distracted because we’re on their phone and we’re.

Tammy Klotz [00:08:03]:
Noticing it more, some of that, honestly, I think, you know, the technology piece of it is, is certainly part of it. But if you think back to kind of when, you know, technology was not nearly as pervasive in our daily work lives, you know, there were different cultures, there were different norms in which people worked. So I’m not sure empathy is tied to that specifically, but I think over time just the general awareness of the human element, because we are all Human beings first. Right. And, you know, we all probably have stories where we’ve worked for individuals who have been very commander like in their approach and do as I say. And, you know, that is just not something that I believe resonates across the general working population. But then the challenge with that becomes. Well, and I’ve gotten challenged on this a couple of times.

Tammy Klotz [00:08:59]:
Well, if you’re empathetic, does that mean you don’t hold people accountable? And the answer to that is absolutely not. Empathy and accountability are partners. Right. And if you use empathy effectively, that accountability is going to come home to you 100% of the time. You know, if people treat them as adversaries or opposites, that is where things are going to break down. I literally was just going through a conversation and somebody was like, yeah, but, you know, can people still be happy held accountable if you’re practicing empathy? And I was like, yeah, like. And then we had to talk through that. Right.

Tammy Klotz [00:09:35]:
Because I think in some people’s mind, it is a one or the other, and that’s definitely not the case.

Karissa Breen [00:09:40]:
Okay, I want to get into that a bit more because this is interesting, because I think people don’t associate empathy with accountability. They can’t coexist. Right. So what does that then look like in your eyes? And then maybe give an example of what that looks like. Looks like.

Tammy Klotz [00:09:55]:
Yeah. So, you know, if you think about it, right, and, you know, given my. My cyber experience. Right. So I will always preach accountability with the folks who are responsible for responding to incidents or accepting, you know, responsibility for, you know, something that maybe went wrong in a particular situation. Right. Or conversely, even if there’s, you know, maybe from a business perspective, it’s just trying times. Right.

Tammy Klotz [00:10:25]:
Whether there’s financial struggles, whether there’s organizational challenges, business restructuring, anything like that. Right. So, you know, during those times, people need to continue to deliver, but at the same time, there’s this need for acknowledgement of what is going on around us. What is the elephant in the room that folks are really, you know, maybe not comfortable addressing? And this is where I’ll dovetail into how important transparency actually is and being able to share what you’re able to share, not oversharing, because there are certain times when we’re not able to do that, but for being able to acknowledge kind of the. The challenges that the organization is facing and talking about them not as this, you know, let’s just brush it under the carpet and we will pretend it doesn’t exist. Because what I have found is that over time is if you do that when the time comes that perhaps there’s a difficult message that needs to be delivered, whether that means, you know, there’s going to be a reduction in workforce, whether that means maybe there’s not going to be any bonuses in the upcoming year, they don’t come as surprises. Right, because you’ve acknowledged the situation for the time leading up to that point and that allows that conversation, that difficult conversation to go much more smoothly. They’re still not going to like it, right, because it’s going to impact them.

Tammy Klotz [00:11:57]:
But because of the trust, because of the empathy and continuing to hold people accountable during those times of uncertainty allows for, I believe, a continuous set of productive activities despite what’s going on around us.

Karissa Breen [00:12:16]:
Do you think as well, society has changed generally as well. So what I mean by that is like back in the day, it was always about for the shareholders. We’re doing this for the shareholders. And now like even Gen Z and you know, the generations after these young folks about. Well, actually it’s about the environment. And I’m seeing even more younger people caring about politics more than ever that I’ve seen, caring more about what’s happening in the world. And maybe that’s attributed to we’ve got phones and we got social media. Like, I didn’t have this growing up.

Karissa Breen [00:12:46]:
I neither did any generation above me. So perhaps that maybe that’s an element to it. But do you think that just we’re evolving a lot more as a society so, like, our perceptions, perspective, sort of changes and there’s a lot more research around who we are as human beings and a lot more data that we’re collecting to analyze certain things or. I know that’s a bit of a broad question, but I’m just genuinely curious. I look back at history, I think.

Tammy Klotz [00:13:12]:
About it from a, you know, that business perspective that you shared, Karissa, is like, oh, it’s about the shareholders, right. And I think, think that still exists, right, Especially in, you know, publicly traded companies where, you know, you’re being held to financial results. But there is a whole new kind of paradigm, right, where there is the focus on what are companies doing to be environmentally safe, how are we protecting the environment, are we making sure we’re. That we’re not emitting bad things into the air or we’re producing chemicals that are detrimental to life and things like that. So I think there’s just a much more apparent acceptance and acknowledgement of that. We need to think about these other things as well. But I do believe that at the end of the Day. The financial performance of a company is definitely probably number one priority because if they’re not profitable, then the rest of it isn’t going to matter, quite honestly.

Tammy Klotz [00:14:11]:
But the acknowledgement of the fact that we are operating in a safe and responsible way, that is not detrimental to the communities that we live in, to the people that work for us or, you know, that we provide product to, I mean, that, that has just become, I think, kind of top of mind for any organization as well. So I think it’s an evolution of the times, but I do believe that financial performance is still key.

Karissa Breen [00:14:39]:
So do you think we as an industry have gotten better at concealing perhaps true motivations? It’s like, oh, we’re going to do. I’m going to plant the. All these trees and you know, spoken about like carbon footprint, we’re doing all these stuff. I mean, I’ve spoken to people on this show for a number of years about that. Potential big corporations doing virtue signaling, all this sort of stuff. Perhaps, like they say they’re doing something, maybe they’re doing it, maybe they’re not doing it, maybe they’re doing it for good PR and media, who knows? But do you think that the motivation is still. Well, you know, we’re a business at the end of the day and we’ve got to make money. Right.

Karissa Breen [00:15:13]:
But are they better at positioning themselves? Because, like, maybe back in the day was a lot more like it’s for the shareholders and now it’s like people don’t want to hear that. But yes, that is still the undertone. But we can’t really lead with that because that’s going to get people offside.

Tammy Klotz [00:15:27]:
Yeah. So, I mean, I think there’s the danger of, you know, I’ll call it the rubber stamp, like, oh, well, we have to do this right, because, you know, we need to be green and we need to reduce the carbon footprint, like you said. But ultimately the accountability that comes with that is something that is either going to make or break your organization from a success perspective. Right. So I struggle with, you know, whether or not is it real? Are they really doing it? Because a lot of the testaments or the assessments or the certifications, you know, they’re founded on, on controls and testing and premises. So, you know, we don’t want those to become so diluted that people don’t trust or believe in them. So I think they’re definitely valid. I think they’re important and I think they’re necessary for businesses to succeed.

Karissa Breen [00:16:19]:
So when people hear the word empathy, I think that they sort of associate that with like soft skills, especially in cyber security and with someone who has worked sort of more on the tools. And then I’ve sort of done more soft skill sort of roles because I just. People were like, well, you’re better at dealing with people, kb so can you do it? But then it sort of went against me because then it felt as if I wasn’t as capable because I was doing a soft skills sort of role. And I want to make it clear from your perspective on what, like perhaps what do people overlook when it comes to these things? And I hate to say the word soft skills because configuring something’s one thing, but trying to influence someone with their own emotions and feelings and trauma and all this sort of stuff that they’ve had is a lot harder. And I think that there’s this stigma in our industry, unfortunately, that, you know, if you got soft skills, like you’re not technical enough or you’re not as smart as the next person. So I really want to debunk a lot of this because it’s really bothered me over the years that I’ve worked in this space because, yes, in recent years I’ve done more of the soft skill related roles.

Tammy Klotz [00:17:23]:
That is something else that I usually get challenged with is like, oh, empathy is a soft skill. And I usually will stop somebody immediately in their tracks. And I was like, let’s not even have that conversation because soft implies squishy and, you know, not effective. And you know, I usually will change that conversation into empathy needs to be a critical skill for the success, success of not only yourself, your team, but also your organization. And especially when it comes to cyber. Right. And probably my most simplistic example, but my favorite example, because it resonates so well within, you know, I’ve done this role now in three different companies, right. And so many times kind of one of the industry quotes is, oh, your people are your weakest link in protecting your organization.

Tammy Klotz [00:18:13]:
And well, how demoralizing is that if your employee base feels that they’re the reason bad things happen, right? So every part of my cybersecurity training and awareness programs has focused on the fact that our human beings, our employees, need to be the strongest link in the program and protecting the organization. And you do that in a couple of different ways, right? You teach them why certain things happen. There’s too many times security professionals will say that this is the way that we’re going to do it because it’s the most secure and there’s no explanation to why and people who are, I will call pure technologists will definitely focus and air on that part of the conversation. But if you back up and you talk to them about, well, the reason that we need to do multi factor authentication, again to use a very simple example, is for the following reasons. And if you take it also out of the context of the work environment and you talk to them about it in their personal lives, like do you want somebody else to get access to your banking information? Do you want somebody else to have access to your tax return, your medical records? So if you make it personal and you kind of distill kind of that security fear and focus on the why we need to do protection, how you can help yourself, how you can help your family, how you can help your company, there in therein lies kind of that getting them to understand. And it then it goes back to the point that you raised with. Is empathy a soft skill? Well, if educating people as to why they need to do something or why they don’t want to be doing something would be considered a soft skill, I say no. I say that becomes a critical skill and it becomes part of your success criteria in making sure that your employees are part of your protection strategy for your organization.

Karissa Breen [00:20:22]:
And when you mentioned before, humans are the weakest link or people you know in your company, the weakest link. Yes, we’ve all heard that. How do you think we got to that point where that just became quite a prominent sort of line that people use? Because you’re right, when you say it like that, it is a bit demoralized, like, oh, hey, these security issues, all because of all of our people that are working, it’s all your fault. It comes across a little bit like that. So. But how do you think our industry thought along those lines?

Tammy Klotz [00:20:51]:
Yeah, so because somebody clicked on a link, that’s, that’s as simple as it gets. Like so many people, like if you talk to them about, oh, you know, cybersecurity, like what’s your phishing click rate? Right. Well, okay, that’s like this a very small part of my job. Right. But it’s what everybody knows and it’s where everybody goes when you talk about, you know, oh, cybersecurity or, you know, there’s an incident. And so I think because it’s as simple as clicking on a link that causes a significant incident for an organization, I believe that’s foundationally where it came from of why your humans are your weakest link.

Karissa Breen [00:21:31]:
And so then would it be case in point that perhaps people that are saying that are lacking empathy.

Tammy Klotz [00:21:36]:
I could go there.

Karissa Breen [00:21:37]:
Yeah.

Tammy Klotz [00:21:38]:
I would probably phrase it more along that they’re lacking awareness and understanding. But you can use empathy to get them to that point where they do understand the why.

Karissa Breen [00:21:47]:
Right around the why. I spent. I remember years and years ago, I was being Swiss, yo. And he’s like, you know, everyone just keeps telling me not to do the thing, but it’s like, well, why? He’s like, no one’s explaining the why part to me. And if I don’t understand why, I’m less likely to want to do something, perhaps. So then on that note, given we’re talking about empathy, why do you believe or do you believe, Sorry, empathy is more important now more than ever. Meaning in previous years, etc. What sort of comes up for you when I ask you that question?

Tammy Klotz [00:22:18]:
Yeah, so I. What I would say is that we talked earlier about the fact that we are so connected, right? And we are managing, you know, multiple facets of our life at the same time. Whether that’s work, whether that’s family obligations, whether that’s other volunteer things. And it is this constant balance between how I’m managing my time, how I’m managing my priorities. Right. So. And we’re in constant motion all of the time. So we’ve become, I guess, you know, victims of our own schedules in that situation.

Tammy Klotz [00:23:02]:
Right. That we have a lot of pressure on us and we’re trying to keep all the balls in the air at the same time. And that becomes the challenge.

Karissa Breen [00:23:13]:
So do you think. Because naturally people are busier than we were historically, and we got more to do and more on our laundry list, et cetera, that we feel, forget perhaps to show up. And as we said earlier at top of the interview around, you know, listening to people intently and actively listening, which is a really hard skill for a lot of people. So do you think that all of these things have just attributed to perhaps lack of empathy? Because, like, well, I’m focused on doing my thing, so I can’t listen to you right now. Or I’m just. And the word narcissist is just always being said. It’s like everyone’s a narcissist at the moment. So it’s like.

Karissa Breen [00:23:51]:
Like what I mentioned before around the recycled words, like, that’s another word that. It’s like, I’m hearing it so much.

Tammy Klotz [00:23:59]:
Interesting.

Karissa Breen [00:24:00]:
Yeah.

Tammy Klotz [00:24:00]:
That’s that all about me syndrome. Right. And my stuff is the most important stuff. And of course, I didn’t do anything wrong. Right. So those are all the things that come into Mind when I hear that narcissistic word, right? One of the things that, you know, I will take with me forever into the future, and it’s a little bit less relevant for me now because my children are grown. But I remember having a conversation with a European colleague, actually, and the kids were busy in all of their after school activities. So literally, you know, I left the office.

Tammy Klotz [00:24:32]:
That was where the days when we went into the office every day, came home, figured out dinner, and then we were off to, you know, whatever activity of the evening was. And then there was always games on the weekend and all those types of things. And at one point, I was sharing, I don’t know, weekend events or whatever, and he looked at me and he was like, Tammy, he’s like, when do they play? And it was like, wow. It was profound, right? Because for as much as we do it as adults, we have, I think, built that in our. At least I did raising my kids. And a lot of the folks that I’m around that we overfill our schedules and therein, you know, we talked about, you know, why is it more important now? Is it because we really have to be intentional about taking that pause and talking about what is going on? Otherwise we’re just going through the motions on a daily basis.

Karissa Breen [00:25:25]:
Do you think that example you use with your kids extends then into the workplace? We’re just going in the oceans. I’m gonna get up, I have my coffee, but I’m too busy because I’m already on a Zoom call in my car. And then I’m getting out of my car to the office and I’m still on the Zoom call. I couldn’t be bothered saying hello to anyone else because I’m busy and I’m more important and I’m on the Zoom call still. Do you think that now it’s kind of like we’re coexisting, but we’re not really interacting as much? Was like, back in the day, like, I mean, I used to have, when I first started, I have some faxes for, like, purchase orders to companies. So. But then I’d also have people physically come in and give me the purchase order. So, I mean, that doesn’t happen anymore.

Karissa Breen [00:26:03]:
And I get it. It’s. Why would they. When I can send an email or text or whatever it is. So I get it. But then it’s like, well, we’re starting and then just with everyone working from home and working from anywhere, and there’s all these sort of things, like, are we starting to just lose the whole element of talking to people and then caring about them as a result of it, everyone’s just so focused on themselves that maybe it’s not. They don’t mean to be like that, but it just is just the way we’ve all grown as a society together.

Tammy Klotz [00:26:32]:
I think human interaction cannot be replaced by, you know, a day full of zoom or teams calls. Right. Part of my challenge right now is I drive an hour to go to the office and we are still in a hybrid mode. But if I drive an hour to the office and then I sit in my office on teams calls from the time I arrive to the time I leave, why did I spend an hour in the car to get there? So I sound repetitive, but going back to that, being deliberate and being intentional and, and if you’re going into the office, finding that time to capitalize on the fact that you are surrounded or with other people, to partake in some sort of type of human interaction, you know, whether it’s going to get a coffee together, whether it’s, you know, not all of you sitting in your offices on the teams call, go to a conference room. And you know that we used to do that all the time. It’s just foreign now for folks. One of the things I do, Carissa, with my team, I mentioned earlier that we have a globally disparate, dispersed and geographically dispersed team. And I can’t take them all to a happy hour.

Tammy Klotz [00:27:40]:
I can’t do like an in person team building event because just logistically it’s expensive and travel is required. And so again, to the point of being deliberate and intentional, every Friday we have a half hour call called Friday Fun. And the only rule is that you cannot talk about work. Work. So it has become probably the most attended meeting, the one that nobody hesitates to join. In fact, interestingly enough, just today, you know, the meeting series had dropped off my calendar and one of my folks came back to me and she was like, is Friday Fun happening today? Like it’s normally 9:30 on Friday morning and it’s not on the calendar. And I was like, oh my goodness, it fell off the, it fell off the, the schedule. But again, it’s intentional.

Tammy Klotz [00:28:31]:
People join. It’s about building camaraderie. It’s about talking about what the kids are doing, what vacation you went on, sharing pictures. Because if we don’t make time for that, it doesn’t happen in today’s world.

Karissa Breen [00:28:44]:
So then on that note, what do you think happens inside teams when empathy is absent, then.

Tammy Klotz [00:28:52]:
So I’ll speak from experience here right So I think without it and becomes a mundane type of environment. Right. People don’t necessarily understand their value. They don’t believe that their contributions matter to an organization. Simple things like saying thank you, sadly in some cases have gone by the wayside. And that’s very sad in those situations. Right? So I think without it and without the acknowledgement of what people are going through, you know, taking the time to listen and understand, because in some situations there may be an individual who is missing all their deadlines or coming in late and you can quickly go to the, oh, well, you know, they’re being irresponsible. They never get anything done on time.

Tammy Klotz [00:29:52]:
But if you don’t take the time again to understand the why that might be happening, you need to create a psychologically safe place for people to know that it’s okay to come to you to say, hey, I’m really struggling at home right now. They don’t need to tell you the details. They can tell you as much or as little as they want to. But to know that they can come to you to say, I’m struggling with something, I just want you to know. And then the next question I’ll get, well, when is enough enough? Right. Are people taking advantage of that situation? And again, if you build the trust between yourself and the employees, the abuse of that trust is less likely to happen. It will still in some situations just because of how some humans are. But if you build it, it’s much harder to destroy that.

Tammy Klotz [00:30:47]:
But it’s relationship, right? It doesn’t matter if they’re work relationships. It’s, you know, the same as in our personal relationships that we have with our partners, with our children, with whomever. Right. So it’s about a mutual understanding and taking time to listen and be empathetic about what somebody is actually going through, but not giving them an excuse to get away with whatever, Whatever.

Karissa Breen [00:31:13]:
So I have a question around. I don’t know if you’ve ever spoken to someone in your life and you’ve expressed something that’s quite sad that’s happened or traumatic or something’s gone on and they’re like, oh, no, that’s sad. And they’re like, okay, so about this work thing, like, straight away they’ve snapped back. It’s like, maybe their intention was to be empathetic, but it didn’t quite carry across in terms of their actions. So how do you balance maybe the reverse of them trying to conceal, like, don’t really care about what KB is going on about, but I kind of need to do the thing. And, you know, she’s had this sad story and I’ve tried to listen, but I really got to get this work thing done. I think that’s something as well that I’m curious to understand.

Tammy Klotz [00:31:53]:
So the word that jumps into my brain when you brought up that example is the genuineness that comes with the question, right? If you’re going to take the time to say and ask somebody how they are, you need to take the time to listen, right? And, you know, the acknowledgement of what you heard, I believe is important, but a transition from that conversation to the, oh, well, we got to do this six, these six things for work, right? But the acknowledgement, hey, I’m, you know, I’m really sorry that you’re going through something like that. If there’s anything that I can do to help, please let me know. If you need somebody to talk to, you know, we can find some resources for you. So you give it enough time for folks to know that they, you’ve heard them and you understand and then, you know, then transition into the conversation around, okay, so, you know, let’s talk about some of the other things that we need to focus on from a work perspective. And then you kind of weave into, do you foresee having any issues in being able to complete these? If so, why? If so, how can we work together to figure that out? Because again, depending upon the intent of the conversation, if, you know, somebody asked, how are you doing? And really didn’t care, they’re going to quickly move on to what their purpose of that conversation was. So one of the things that I’ll do in my one to ones with my employees, I will always end the conversation is, you know, what do you need from me? Is there anything I can do to help you be more successful? What’s in your way that I can help you remove? And that is a very conscious conversation that we have.

Karissa Breen [00:33:38]:
Do you think as well that perhaps especially like new managers or new leaders, perhaps they don’t have the training and some people, in certain instances, they’ve just been elevated now to be a leader because there was no one else. So it’s like, well, now you’re the leader because we don’t have any other security person here, so it’s you. And they just don’t have the tools to be able to deal with people, because some of these people who are in leadership positions today, like technical by trade. And then I know this because I’ve spoken to these people and they’re like, yeah, like, I’m not as Good with dealing with people, perhaps. So maybe again, like, they come across a little awkward, like, oh, no, Tammy’s told me this really sad story. I don’t know how to deal with it. So then what I’ll do is I step back to work. So again, maybe there was.

Karissa Breen [00:34:18]:
Maybe some people are disingenuous when they’re just all about the work, but then maybe some people just are a bit socially awkward and they don’t know really what to say.

Tammy Klotz [00:34:27]:
I think that that’s, you know, that’s very valid, right? There are people who are put into leadership positions who never wanted it, were never trained, and don’t know what to do. Right. And that, that comes with experience, with learning. If I take it completely out of context, right? And, you know, if you have somebody who’s going to be a forklift driver and you’ve never taught them how to operate the forklist, they’re probably going to fail. They’re probably going to have some sort of miss or near miss that because they were not taught properly. And being a leader is honestly no different than that. And that’s one of the reasons, honestly, that I actually took the time to write the book, which people will ask me, what inspired you to write the book? And it goes back to a very simple conversation I had probably, oh, gosh, 25 years ago with a great leader who had influenced me. And he just said, tammy, he’s like, you need to teach people to lead the way that you do.

Tammy Klotz [00:35:27]:
And I was like, what? Like, this is who I am. And he’s like, yes, but more people need to practice the things that you do. And that really became the foundation for the book. But again, if people are not taught and it is not something that is innate in their abilities, we need to take the time for them to teach them as well.

Karissa Breen [00:35:51]:
That’s an interesting point. Would you also say that, I mean, there’s this whole phrase out there, like, people just born leaders. And yes, you do need to be still taught and trained and all those sort of things. But, you know, I’m an entrepreneur and I really do believe, at the end of the day, you really are born an entrepreneur. But you have to learn it, because some people are just not built for this sort of stuff. Do you think that example applies then, to leaders? Yes, we need to be trained, do courses and, you know, read your book and listen to podcasts like this. But some people just have that natural ability to be a leader, similar to your experience you just shared from 25 years ago.

Tammy Klotz [00:36:30]:
There are people who are Natural leaders, absolutely. And there are people who can be taught to be great leaders as well. Right. And a combination thereof. But there are definitely people who are put into the role who don’t want to be, have no desire to be. Especially when you look at folks who are technologists, right. They want to have their hands on the technology, in the technology, and that’s okay. We need both types of individuals in the organizations to be successful.

Tammy Klotz [00:37:03]:
But what is probably the most detrimental is when we force somebody who has no desire to be a leader into a leadership role, they’re most likely going to fail. And part of our job, my job as a leader is to have those conversations. Is this something that you want to do? Can we provide opportunities for you to do this or accepting the fact that somebody says, yeah, no, not my gig. Right. Don’t want to, don’t need to. I want to go over here and figure out my technology and that’s okay.

Karissa Breen [00:37:36]:
So what do you think moving forward? We’ve spoken a lot about listening and being intentional and being present in the moment now that things are going to get faster with AI and being more connected than ever. And all of the things that we’ve sort of discussed today. What are a couple of things perhaps that people can start to maybe think about that they can do day to day and be more aware of because things aren’t going to slow down, going to get faster. And perhaps because of that pace, it’s meaning that we’re not being as present with our leaders and employees, customers, whatever. So I’m just curious to maybe if you were to roll up today’s sort of interview, what do you sort of want to leave people thinking about?

Tammy Klotz [00:38:19]:
So where I was going to head, KB, is with regards to focusing on self care, right. Because that taking care of yourself is extremely important. And whether that means pauses within your day to get up and take a walk to kind of re energize yourself. I think those are important moments for you to do for yourself and also to set an example for the rest of the organization. One of my favorite quotes is around, when you get on an airplane and you’re getting ready for takeoff, one of the things that they, the flight attendant will say is that you need to put on your oxygen mask first before you can take care of anybody else. And that statement is so true again, when you take it out of the context of the airplane. If we are not taking care of ourselves, we cannot take care of anybody else. So that importance of self care, I believe underpins kind of the success of all of our beings on a daily basis.

Tammy Klotz [00:39:24]:
And I want to kind of leave the audience with we exist as human beings first and not as cybersecurity analysts, not as information technologists, but at the base. The most important thing is taking care of ourselves as a human being so that we can be productive in all aspects of our lives. Because if we don’t do that, we are not going to be successful on a on a regular and routine basis. We want to provide that safe place so that people can succeed and be themselves and acknowledge when there are things that are impacting them that we can potentially really just step back and listen to and protect ourselves. Much like I need to do as a cyber professional, I need to protect the organization. I need to protect the systems that run our organization. But most importantly, we have to protect ourselves from all of the noise that goes on in our lives, in our world, so that we can be present for those who need us.