Karissa Breen [00:00:00]:
A quick disclaimer that since the recording, Doris has moved on from working at SMA Australia. We still believe the content was insightful and needed to be published. Happy listening.

Doris Spielthenner [00:00:11]:
I think what we definitely need is a harmonization of cyber security standards across Australia. So not every state going down their own pathway, but actually having that harmonized on a national level. The other thing is, like, linking the the cybersecurity act with the critical infrastructure act and making sure that there’s no loopholes there.

Karissa Breen [00:00:48]:
Joining me now is Doris Spieltena, MD and Regional Manager APAC from SMA Australia. And today we’re discussing how cybersecurity can take Australia to net zero. So Doris, thanks for joining and welcome. Thanks, Chris. So thanks for having me. Okay.

Karissa Breen [00:01:09]:
So net zero, I really I’m curious to know, what do you mean by this? Because, I mean, that’s a great place to start.

Doris Spielthenner [00:01:17]:
Well, net zero would be, you know, that a % of our energy production in in Australia would go entirely into renewables.

Karissa Breen [00:01:27]:
Okay. So in in terms of at the moment, where where is that sort of sitting? What would be the percentage? Do you have any sort of stats on that?

Doris Spielthenner [00:01:34]:
Yeah. So so at the moment, on on average in in Australia, we’ve probably got 37% nationally that comes from renewable energy and and and then in with some exceptions in in renewals on average.

Karissa Breen [00:01:51]:
So would you say from your experience, would you say that’s high, low in comparison to other parts of the world? Where does that sort of sit?

Doris Spielthenner [00:01:58]:
Yeah. But it’s probably it’s probably not bad. I mean, the the 75% is definitely outstanding and very high. But, yeah, so it’s sort of, like, you know, thirty thirty seven to to 50 would put us in a in a good spot internationally.

Karissa Breen [00:02:14]:
And then in terms of, like, applying it to, like, a cybersecurity angle, what are you what are your thoughts in on that if we were to sort of just zoom out really quick?

Doris Spielthenner [00:02:21]:
I suppose to to paint the picture. So Australia is in the midst of this transition to net zero. So that means that in Australia, our energy supply in the network is moving from a handful of big fossil fuel power stations, so that’s your gas and coal plants, to a decentralized network of a lot of different renewable energy plants. So solar parks, wind farms, batteries, and the likes. And so increasingly, these these decentralized networks of renewables are essentially digitized energy networks where every asset, whether it’s small or or large is interconnectedly connected to a communication system or a network. And so I suppose with that cybersecurity place center stage to move, We, you know, where we need cybersecurity to identify any missing links, any blind spot, so to ensure that nobody attacks and turns the lights off. And so that, you know, a threat that’s become more prevalent now with this high, you know, high penetration of renewables and all of these different devices than it had been, you know, back in the day. And so, obviously, everybody wants twenty four seven supply of energy.

Doris Spielthenner [00:03:35]:
And so it’s essential that we have very strong cybersecurity place that, you know, people could build their trust and the confidence in that path towards net zero, if that makes sense.

Karissa Breen [00:03:46]:
Okay. So I wanna keep following to this whole you know, with with net zero, I mean, you obviously know way more about this than me. But what is the sort of general consensus? Because I mean, depends on what you read. Obviously, people are for it. People are against it. Walk me through what’s happening in terms of the landscape because I think this is really interesting in terms of the net zero, but then also bringing the cyber component. But I’m really curious to just get your view of the lay of the land at the moment.

Doris Spielthenner [00:04:11]:
Yes. So so so Australia has the highest per capita rooftop solar penetration in the world, and so it is really leading. So you could say that you’re, like, individuals, so people in the residential space and increasingly also business owners, smaller manufacturing. So they really see the benefit of renewable energy, so the benefit of putting solar onto their roofs. So this is progressing really, really well. However, you know, in the lab scale utility space, so Australia tries to move away from coal fired power stations and gas is supplied to large solar parks, wing farms, and large batteries. And in order to sort of replace that old infrastructure with new infrastructure, we also need better transmission lines and the likes. And and that’s sort of where social license for that part is not as strong because firstly, it’s quite a costly investment into the future, you know, replacing the old infrastructure with the new.

Doris Spielthenner [00:05:19]:
But, also, there’s a bit of this not in my backyard thing going on where where people are not too pleased if transmission lines, which are perceived to be quite ugly or perhaps not everybody likes a wind farm if that happens to be in their backyard. But, you know, we are in in general, we are getting there. Australia is a big country, so there is a lot of space for the solar parts of the wind farms. And so in relative terms to other parts of the of the world, we’re actually doing quite quite well, and people do have, in general, a positive attitude towards renewables.

Karissa Breen [00:05:54]:
Okay. So going back to your comment before, you said in Australia, in terms of, like, houses, we’ve got the highest amount. Why would you say that’s the case in comparison to other parts of the world? I’m just curious to understand.

Doris Spielthenner [00:06:04]:
Well, I suppose we’re the blessed country where the sun Norway shines, but but equally, perhaps ten, twelve years ago, the government, paid really high subsidies in the form of feeding tariffs. So people would create their own solar energy on their rooftops, and then they would sell it back to the energy retailers. And then they, you know, the government would give them a very good price and guarantee them a price for selling this energy back into the grid for, you know, the next ten years or the next however many years to come. And so, by and large, these these high feed in tariffs, they have now in in most states or territories subsided, so they no longer exist. However, because the energy prices, you know, have been going up more generally, pre solar on your on your roof is actually quite a good thing to do for for people. And and especially these days, if you combine them with a battery, so you can, you know, store your solar energy during the day and then put it on this battery and then retrieve it from the battery once the sun has gone down. So that’s a pretty good proposition for for many households, especially since the the price of the system cost has been coming down.

Karissa Breen [00:07:25]:
Yeah. And I also think with, you know, rising cost of living, etcetera, it’s definitely increased. Would you say as well that in terms of our, like, general electricity, the cost is higher in Australia than it is for other countries?

Doris Spielthenner [00:07:37]:
It’s an average price. Like, there’s a lot of countries where the where the cost of energy is much higher, especially for those countries where there are a lot of fossil fuel dependent and where all of the fossil fuels have to be imported and where they may not have the the space to for solar plants or for a wind farms and the likes, or even for, you know, coal fired power station or something like that. So on average, the the energy price in in in Australia is not too not too bad compared to some of those other countries, say, in even in in Southeast Asia or in in Europe or in Japan.

Karissa Breen [00:08:16]:
So I’m aware there’s this target to reduce, you know, greenhouse admissions. I think it was, like, 43% by, like, 2030. So would you say we’re on target for that? I mean, you’ve obviously already done a little bit of the context in terms of why people are moving towards solar, etcetera. But would you say we’re likely to

Doris Spielthenner [00:08:34]:
hit that goal? Because that isn’t too far away, 2030. If a lot of these connection approvals for the big solar plants or the big wind farms or big batteries, if that is being accelerated and and goes ahead and if we can drop some some more support for the transmission lines, then, yes, I believe we are in a kind of kind of very good pathway to get there a bit ’20, ’30, or, you know, ’31 or but, you know, we should be getting we should be getting close. A lot of that will also hinge on what’s going to happen in the federal election in most likely the first or the second quarter of twenty twenty five, because, you know, some of the energy policy may change, but presuming it it stays at as it is and it keeps on going into the same direction of supporting renewable energy, then we should be able to get there and hit those targets.

Karissa Breen [00:09:32]:
So then following the theme of net zero and the goal that I believe is 2050, which is a decent amount of time, not crazy, but, you know, it’s further than 2030. Do you think we’ll ever get to net zero, though?

Doris Spielthenner [00:09:44]:
Yes. I believe we we we can get to to net zero, a lot of the renewable energy resources such as the the the products we provide can, not wanting to go too technical, but can create sort of synthetic inertia and and in a digital way, produce inertia that’s required in the grid where previously sort of big synchronous condensers and machines would have done that work. So those that would have been powered by, like, coal fired power station and other such, you know, older infrastructure. So, yes. So if we bring in these new technologies, then it is entirely possible. It is also required, but, of course, the the price for, for example, for green hydrogen production will have to come down significantly because some fuel forms like this will still be needed in some of the heavy industries. So there’s one thing to to move to a % electricity supplied for the, you know, for for the current grid to renewable energy, and it’s another thing to decarbonize our heavy industries in in mining and related industries. Okay.

Karissa Breen [00:11:00]:
Now that we sort of set the tone and you’ve sort of explained a little bit more about the landscape, I wanna shift gears slightly and talk a little bit more about South Australia. So I’m informed that South Australia is taking the lead on cybersecurity standards in energy systems. So tell us more about that.

Doris Spielthenner [00:11:20]:
It’s an interesting case in point. As I said earlier, so on average in Australia, we would have 37% of the energy mix being renewable energy. Whereas in South Australia, we have a seven and a half percent on average. South Australia also is a net exporter of renewable energy, so they produce more than they need. And so, presumably, because of that, nobody asked them to. Because of that, because they punch above their weight, they’re leading on the energy transition. And so they’re probably thinking, therefore, we get to set the rules. So in one such example, earlier this year, the the surface real estate power networks, they set new cyber rules.

Doris Spielthenner [00:12:09]:
We’re not actually an overarching policy framework. So for example, they demanded that all servers on which energy production or consumption data is being stored or processed, that they need to be housed within Australia. Now that’s a really big call. So from a commercial point of view, for a company like ours or any competitor, really, South Australia really only accounts for 5% five to 10% of our Australia sales revenue. So you would have to think until all of the states and territories or at a federal level, you know, unless they were to adopt such a rule of having all service in Australia, we wouldn’t want to make the investment of moving all of the service to Australia just because one of the states demands that. So from a cybersecurity point of view, however, I’d probably say that South Australia is the only state that actually does take cybersecurity in the renewable energy grids seriously. And so, therefore, they want to push for the necessary reforms. So while we might not like that commercially from from my perspective, it is a good thing.

Karissa Breen [00:13:27]:
Okay. There’s a couple of interesting things in there that you said. So you said South Australia is taking cybersecurity more seriously. So what do you mean what does seriously look like in your eyes, and what are the other states and territories not doing?

Doris Spielthenner [00:13:40]:
Well, they, you know, they think about what would be good what would good regulation look like. And and so, for example, moving servers onshore and and therefore, trying to reduce, nation state interference and in general, better control and and having all that data being stored onshore. I mean, it’s a good thing. A lot of other countries have already made that move. And so, you know, South Australia has taken it upon themselves to prescribe that, but also other other sort of regulations or or or standards for large scale utility plant as well as what we call consumer energy resources. So that’s your residential solar inverter or your battery or your or your electric cars. So, yeah, so they are thinking about how can we improve the situation for large utility and for for those CER resources, and that’s a good thing. The other governments, other state governments, they have been made aware among them by the South Australian government themselves.

Doris Spielthenner [00:14:52]:
They’ve also been made aware by us because we’ve we’ve been, you know, pushing into that direction as well, and we would like to see higher standards. However, when the, for example, New South Wales government released its consumer energy strategy, such as very recently, after months of consultation, cybersecurity was not even mentioned once in the document.

Karissa Breen [00:15:16]:
Okay. So why would you say it wasn’t mentioned? Because I don’t take it seriously? Or what what’s the theory?

Doris Spielthenner [00:15:20]:
Yes. It’s just not a consideration. I mean, at the moment, you know, there’s a lot of other a lot of other criteria in the consumer energy space. So for example, all of the state governments meet this cost of living crisis. Everybody wants to, of course, reduce the price of energy, reduce the price of systems. And and so there’s rather a push into that direction as well as how can we keep the energy grid stable from a just an energy mix perspective? And how can we, you know, ensure, yeah, doing the right thing by the people rather than, you know, bringing in onerous cybersecurity standards that perhaps would also raise the bar for lower priced products, for example, from China coming into the country and into the market. So cheap and cheerful over cybersecurity.

Karissa Breen [00:16:15]:
Okay. So this is interesting. So in terms of the going back to you mentioned before, not a consideration, because you used to I need to admit more on the manufacturing level. So again, if we look at, like, a router, home router, I mean, there’s I’ve had these discussions recently with people on the show that, you know, like you said, cheap and cheerful, we can produce it, mass produce it. It’s a lot cheaper than if we were to factor in more secure devices. So what I’m hearing from what you’re saying is people that are looking at this are like, oh, we can forego security because we wanna try to drive the cost down. Is that a fair assumption?

Doris Spielthenner [00:16:44]:
Yes. I I think it is. And I suppose there there there’s also other acts. So for example, the cybersecurity act at a federal level that would sort of have to come and regulate things such as routers or or single things such as all all of your Internet of things, like your baby monitors or your home inverters or whatever, so to really combat that. And and so perhaps the individual states such as New South Wales, they might have thought, well, this is not our problem. This should be a federal problem, and it should be regulated under the cybersecurity act. So

Karissa Breen [00:17:23]:
Would you also say, Doris, that people just don’t know enough about cybersecurity? So therefore, when people don’t know something, they just try to avoid it or just, you know, glide over certain elements of it? Would you say there’s also that side of it?

Doris Spielthenner [00:17:36]:
Yes. Look, I mean, on the on the large scale utility side, there is a and has just been released by Australia, a cybersecurity maturity framework. So for the large scale utility space, people so regulators, agencies are taking it very seriously. However, on the small side of things, so in the residential and the commercial space, neither consumers nor businesses nor, at this point, the regulator, you know, have been really looking at this. Because if you think about it, if there’s an attack on one or two or three large solar parts or wind farms, it can bring the grid down. But to orchestrate an attack on on lots of individual residential inverters or or batteries or EV cars would be sort of a much harder thing to do. Right? And so so I think there definitely is less awareness about that. Probably there’s less worry about it in the in the sense that it could bring down the whole energy grid on that.

Doris Spielthenner [00:18:44]:
So so I think it’s question of priorities.

Karissa Breen [00:18:48]:
But that to me makes zero sense because it’s like, how can they not say it’s a priority? Because when like you just mentioned, like, if this is under critical infrastructure. So imagine if things have stopped working. People can’t run electricity. People can’t power their offices. So I’m surprised that people aren’t taking this more seriously. And maybe that’s biased to me because I’m running a cybersecurity show. But for me, even if anyone were to look at this, they could still say, well, we need to make sure we have uptime. So we need to make sure that security is factored into it.

Doris Spielthenner [00:19:16]:
Yes. And and and again, at this at the critical infrastructure level, so at the large solar parks, large wind farm level, definitely. So the awareness is there, and and there’s a lot of different things in place to make it safe. And in the but when it comes to the individual devices in a household or or or a business, that’s sort of where people lose interest because people make decisions with their wallet, and cybersecurity is a topic that’s been over everybody’s head. You know, if if Yvonne tried to speak to my neighbors or people I know, and then they just they’re just like, yeah. Well, I bought this other product because it was a thousand dollars cheaper.

Karissa Breen [00:20:02]:
And that part of it, I understand if I put on my consumer hat. But is there gonna be more regulation around the the the products that are being manufactured that this has to be embedded? And then, therefore, maybe as a result, government can try to drive down some of that cost. So, therefore, be one spending an additional 5 oh, sorry. Additional thousand. Maybe it’s an extra 200 in terms of if they were to pro rata that cost over all of the, you know you know, all these, like, individual devices, etcetera. Do you think you see that coming into play? I mean, I’d say we have these conversations now even from a telco perspective for people that run security surveillance cameras, etcetera.

Doris Spielthenner [00:20:38]:
Yeah. Look. It’s a good point. And and Australia has this new cybersecurity act. And and and with that, the ministry will have the powers to think about regulating all these Internet of things resources, and and mandating higher standards. So I think that’s what we are, you know, definitely going to see the, I guess, the higher cost of a device that’s being produced in Germany over a price that may be a device that may be produced in in China. What makes it more expensive is not just the cybersecurity aspect. It’s just one of the many aspects.

Doris Spielthenner [00:21:17]:
But one of the things is also that it will perhaps last longer, is more reliable. So the you can, of course, spread that return of investment over perhaps ten or fifteen years rather than just five years.

Karissa Breen [00:21:31]:
And I understand there are manufacturing costs and labor and all of those sort of things. I mean, but you’d be familiar with when the government saw rolling out Huawei as a risk and they didn’t. And do you think that now the government will say, well, we’re not gonna procure these devices from x country or x part of the world because we’re concerned about cybersecurity. Do you or so is that what we’re gonna start to see in terms of your commentary around the regulation, the government starting to step in, or do you think that’s probably an unrealistic

Doris Spielthenner [00:22:01]:
goal? Yeah. Look, that’s probably an unrealistic goal. There might just be, you know, certain standards that businesses have to meet, like, for example, ISO 27,001 or something like that. So we, for example, we would like to see certification like that being mandated. And and, of course, there may be also other standards that could be mandated within the Internet of Things space. And so the minister would have the powers to do that. One of the, you know, one of the regulations we would like to see that we we see in place in Germany is that the government has the powers that when they suspect foul play by any company, you know, whether they meet certain standards or not. But if they suspect foul play, they can then start an investigation.

Doris Spielthenner [00:22:53]:
And if that investigation finds that the devices that have been installed, in fact, either do not meet the standards and the regulations that the company claimed that it meets, or, also, if there’s other sort of, like, hidden backdoors or something being installed on the devices, then the government could demand that all of those devices be deinstalled and could also demand that, of course, none of those devices of that brand will ever be installed in the country again. And so we think that happened in Germany. So Germany has such a law. And so Huawei telecommunications, like, they had to rip up all of the infrastructure, and they have to now deinstall all of that infrastructure in in Germany. So we would like to see a law like that because you can deploy whatever standard you want. In the end of the day, what the company says rolls off their conveyor belt and what they do sell into the country often could be very two different things.

Karissa Breen [00:23:55]:
So would you say in your experience that law will come to fruition? Because, I mean, it makes sense. Right? Because, again, look, I I get it. No one wants to pay more money because, you know, they don’t understand it enough. And I totally understand from the consumer perspective. Also, when it comes to critical infrastructure, that’s another problem. But, again, like, as you’ve just mentioned, it’s like they had to rip it all out and then restart again because they suspected to your terminology foul play. So you think this is gonna happen, or where do you sort of see this coming into it?

Doris Spielthenner [00:24:24]:
It it’s not something that’s underway at the moment in Australia. I think Australia might go down a different path, of of a number of different regulations and and and standards rather than something more open as this law in Germany or in Europe. So I I don’t have my hopes up, but it is definitely something that we speak to different state governments or federal ministers about. And we would love to see that because it’s almost like a a little bit of a blanket insurance policy in in a in a space where technology just develops so rapidly. And as soon as a standard is mandated or launched, it is already out of date, and it doesn’t really provide the necessary protections.

Karissa Breen [00:25:14]:
So going back to your comment around foul play and if someone suspects it like you were using the example from Germany, what does that then look like? So when you say someone, do you mean like a business or there’s someone individually? And then who are they sort of, like, reporting that to? To a regulator there? Or what does that look like?

Doris Spielthenner [00:25:30]:
Yeah. So it would be so it would be a a company, say a brand, be it Huawei or or be it another brand. So if any of the other market players or a regulator somebody had taken the device and they’d taken it apart, and they can see, oh, it’s interesting this device opens a has a backdoor or REM sends signals back to servers in in China or in Russia or somewhere, and the device does something that is it is actually not expected to do, then the people who have this suspicion can take that to the regulator. The regulator would then consider that case. If they think it’s valid and strong enough, they will then launch into a independent investigation. And if that investigation finds those devices to be in violation of the courts, then then, yeah. And the government has the power to prohibit the sale of those products in the in the country and also have the powers to de install those devices.

Karissa Breen [00:26:39]:
Yeah. That’s interesting because I think as you were talking, I’m just thinking that for that example in Germany, that that that that could have been a massive national security issue for them as well. Like, if you’re getting about the cyber component, it’s one thing. But then, like, that could roll out and really start to impact then country.

Doris Spielthenner [00:26:56]:
Yes. That’s exactly right. So, I mean, really, what you would wanna have is a combination of two things, like, really strong standards that prevent the installation of dodgy equipment in the first place, but then also the powers and the regulation that allows you to, you know, pull up any bad actor to remove the infrastructure or remove the devices if they are found to be in violation.

Karissa Breen [00:27:24]:
So then going back to some of the we’ve already had around, like, the regulation and the standards. So if we’re not gonna get there in Australia and people are procuring procuring, sorry, this technology from elsewhere because it’s cheaper, doesn’t then impose just a cyber risk which we established for the national security? Like, is that government just not factoring this in as a risk?

Doris Spielthenner [00:27:44]:
Yes. I think they’re not. And and I think we need to see action there quite quickly.

Karissa Breen [00:27:51]:
So why wouldn’t they factor this in when they’ve already, like, as again, back to my Huawei example with the whole NBN thing. Like, when they have learned from that and now these things are becoming even more prolific. Like, is what’s your, like, thinking behind their their motivation to perhaps not worry about it?

Doris Spielthenner [00:28:08]:
I think that renewable energy versus telecommunication is perhaps a more politicized topic. Right? So anybody on on whatever side of politics would have said, yes, we need the NBN. Yes. Everybody needs Internet in their homes, be it rural or in the city. Everybody has a right to fast Internet. So I don’t think that there was any political dispute over it. And so, therefore, you know, the government, together with the key telecom players, were able to roll out that infrastructure and do those things. And and the only political issues they had was about the cost of the rollout and how it is done and how long it was taken and all the rest of it.

Doris Spielthenner [00:28:52]:
But it wasn’t really so much a discussion around the the actual doing it or not doing it or the substance of it. Whereas with renewable energy, it is such a politicized topic where one side of politics is really pushing for it and the other side of politics is not really in favor of it. And so, therefore, the current government, the labor government, that’s pushing for it with a strong criticism of of it being a very costly energy transition. They want to do everything to keep the cost down and make it as cheap as possible for the consumers of the of the renewable energy. And so, therefore, that is where it becomes difficult because cybersecurity is the trade off against this cheap energy transition.

Karissa Breen [00:29:43]:
Yeah. I totally hear what you’re saying, and, unfortunately, that is the conundrum. But then as as you’re speaking, I’m thinking, well, yeah. Sure. Okay. Going back to the point, no one wants to pay more money if they don’t have to. I get it. However, when you say they’re sticking the can down the road, so what I mean by that is just say they went and procure this technology from x part of the world because it’s significant significantly cheaper than perhaps some other regions like Germany and and friends.

Karissa Breen [00:30:05]:
But then it becomes a national security issue because like you said, there’s backdoors and then there’s spyware and then they’re monitoring everything that we’re doing. It it just feels like it delays the problem. So, yeah, we sort of

Doris Spielthenner [00:30:15]:
Yes.

Karissa Breen [00:30:15]:
We saved a couple of bucks in the beginning, but then we’ve got an even bigger problem on our hands, which is is an infinite like, there’s so many can of worms that that opens up there in terms of problems. I just don’t understand how people can’t see in terms of the supply chain. Is that the part I know I know it’s a political problem, but again, like, it it just feels like we’re sort of robbing Peter to pay Paul a little bit. It’s just that it’s they’re they’re both sort of bad.

Doris Spielthenner [00:30:44]:
Yes. A % agree. It it is a problem that I mean, also in Australia, we’re seeing some brands, some companies, all of them from China, being, you know, very strong, getting a lot of market share, and all of that supply chain is coming out of China. And if any one of those companies, they’re not state owned at this point, but who knows? In two years’ time, five years’ time, these companies could be state owned. Right? And so then we have a 80% of our residential or commercial solar infrastructure, you know, being owned by the Chinese state government, for example. I mean, that could be a scenario. And then, of course, you know, any such state government would have access to the individual devices that power our homes and businesses. So I think, you know, there’s with that concentration, with that high dependence on brands from just one country, or just high dependence on just, you know, one or two brands, It’s a it’s a concentration risk paired with a cybersecurity risk that we potentially will have to practice in a few years’ time.

Karissa Breen [00:32:03]:
So where do you think we go from here, Doris? So I know there’s not an easy answer to that, but, obviously, we we’ve talked through a few scenarios, what are the risks, etcetera. What are your thoughts sort of moving forward as we enter into 2025 and beyond?

Doris Spielthenner [00:32:16]:
I think what we definitely need is a harmonization of cybersecurity standards across Australia. So not every state going down their own pathway, but actually having that harmonized on a national level. That’s one thing. The other thing is, like, linking the the cybersecurity act with the critical infrastructure act and and sort of making sure that there’s no loopholes there. Definitely, you know, we we do have a a self assessment, cybersecurity framework, which is a maturity model. It’s it’s a self assessment rather than being a third party assessment, so I think that should happen as well. And we should also mandate some of those standards such as ISO twenty seven zero zero one. And, yeah, and then, as I said before, have this regulation of an with, like, this security blanket of, you know, the government having the powers to investigate companies if they suspect foul plan.

Karissa Breen [00:33:17]:
So, Doris, do you have any sort of closing comments or final thoughts you’d like to leave our audience with today?

Doris Spielthenner [00:33:22]:
Encourage everyone to think about cybersecurity. I mean, your audience clearly, does that anyway. But, perhaps for for people to share with their neighbors and and their friends and their peers and their family members that, you know, cybersecurity is a topic that everybody has to take seriously. And so they should think twice when they make investments into their residential devices or anything they put into their their business in terms of infrastructure or equipment.