Mark Squirrell [00:00:00]:
I’ve just seen on too many occasions, either as individuals or, you know, the organization that I’ve been a part of has just waited, just hoping that the problem’s gonna go away very quickly. Most of the time, it doesn’t, and we can just hope, but hope’s not a plan. And so I’d say start making decisions early. If you do find that you’ve now made an incorrect decision based on variables that you were just not aware of, well, that’s where your flexibility comes in. You’ve now got to reassess, take a different pathway. But as leaders, if you’re not out there being seen to be making decisions, you’re probably not leading.

Karissa Breen [00:00:59]:
Joining me today is Mark ‘Squiz’ Squirrell, keynote speaker from Global Frontline. And today, we’re discussing from Arafat to Everest. So, Squiz, thanks for joining, and welcome.

Mark Squirrell [00:01:08]:
It’s my pleasure, KB.

Karissa Breen [00:01:10]:
So just so people are aware, just to set the scene before we get into it, I met you. I was hosting a conference here in Sydney, and you were the keynote speaker that I had to say, hey. We’ve got this really amazing keynote all day. But then, obviously, end of the day is always a really hard spot to to manage people’s sort of energy. You can start to see people fading, but you came in really high energy. You had a really great presentation that blew me away in terms of some of the things that you were sharing. So I thought why not Let’s get you on a podcast because you have a very different perspective that I do believe the industry needs to hear about. You’ve got some great stories, some of which you shared in images as well.

Karissa Breen [00:01:53]:
So maybe let’s just start a little bit about, like, your journey, and how do you get to the sort of mindset that you have today?

Mark Squirrell [00:02:02]:
Well, I was very fortunate when I was a school kid to go to a school that had a cadet unit, And I realized that I was okay at sports and I was okay at academics, but I really didn’t excel anywhere near as well as I did in those areas as I did in the cadet unit. And so very early on realized that that’s probably an area that I wanted to focus on as an adult. So I did went off and joined the army. And then when the East Timor Conflict came along, my unit wasn’t ready to go in the first, and I was desperately wanting to go and test all of those skills that I’ve been practicing over the last ten years of military service. So I applied for a job over in East Timor with an NGO called the International Rescue Committee as a security risk manager. And I got over there and I thought, wow. This is the most exciting job on the planet. I would have done it for free for sure.

Mark Squirrell [00:03:00]:
It was all about going in and helping to keep the staff safe, the operations moving through that risk management, and, ultimately, our goals were to help save lives, which is the most rewarding thing that you can think of. But I think also coupled with that was the complexity that a war zone presents itself with when you’re there. It’s it’s an extremely adrenaline filled and exciting place to be because there’s just so many things that are changing every day. And I just saw that as a huge challenge and and thought, wow. I just wanna absolutely get into this as a career. So I did. I continued with that NGO for three years and then moved across to the United Nations World Food Programme, which is a food aid, of the UN. It’s an organization that sits right alongside the umbrella of humanitarian organizations, others of which you’re more probably more familiar with at UNICEF, UNHCR, and WHO.

Mark Squirrell [00:03:56]:
And that has taken me around the world now for the last twenty years, again, as a security risk manager, which essentially means my job is involving providing training to our staff in so we can again be prepared for the the most difficult challenges that we find find on a battlefield or in a natural disaster. It’s to provide analysis so that my management can build that into their operational planning, but it was really to use my military background to go forward and build relationships with people on the ground so that they could help us in times of need, but also unlock access to the communities that we’re trying to to assist. And, the first place the World Food Programme sent me to was the West Bank and Gaza Strip. I thought, wow. I couldn’t wait to get over there and try and tell others how to be safe, but I did got on with the job and found myself on one occasion not negotiating or building a relationship at the military or police level, but at the political level. And that’s where I found myself in a room with the late Yasser Arafat. So that’s that’s how I got to that point. And then as you said, the storyline sort of goes from Arafat to Everest while I continued being a humanitarian on and on one occasion found myself getting posted with the World Food Programme to the insurgency that was unfolding in Nepal.

Mark Squirrell [00:05:14]:
So it was quite low level and not so well recognized in the international media, but it was it was quite a nasty conflict there where an insurgency was being fought against the king at the time. And I spent two years in Nepal, and at at which time, I I took every opportunity to explore the the Himalayas and eventually decided to see whether or not I could have a crack at the big one, Mount Everest. And I suppose when you’re undertaking any big challenge, one of the best things you can have with you is a a really good reason and purpose as to why you’re doing that. And so I I chose to to take the World Food Programme’s flag with me and try and see if I could get that to the summit. And 10:05 on the 18th of May, 2006 managed to raise it on behalf of those who daily seek the opportunity to have a nice warm sensation in their side of their stomach because there’s there’s food there. So it was a successful undertaking in the end.

Karissa Breen [00:06:10]:
Okay. So you mentioned before building relationships, obviously, you said it, you know, how to keep people safe at that sort of civilian level, but then you sort of spoke around the political with obviously Arafat or Yasir Arafat. So walk me through that because one of the things in our world or cyber world is a lot of people talk about, you know, soft skills are not influencing and building relationships and communication. It’s changing now, but historically, that was like a fluffy skill. I do see it as a hard skill because, you know, to try to convince someone or influence someone or sell to someone isn’t easy. And, again, you’re dealing with human being that is not like a machine. It’s not configured like a machine. They have feelings and emotions, and it’s hard to navigate.

Karissa Breen [00:06:54]:
So is there anything that you can share your time with the work that you’ve been doing that you you think is valuable for people to understand?

Mark Squirrell [00:07:01]:
Yeah. Look. I I think in my world, initially, in the military and then more so as a humanitarian risk manager, The absolute focus appeared to be all around making sure that our staff were equipped with the right equipment, but then focusing on making sure that all of that training was around those those hard skills. And and there was very little focus on the soft skills, which I I agree with you. We’ll put in that relationship building and understanding how to to best leverage your relationships. And I noticed over time that in fact, in an emergency, yes, it was absolutely critical for us to have flapjackets and to have radios and to have the right vehicles. Ultimately, you could have all of that equipment. You could have all of the training in the world, but the most critical component of responding to a crisis was having the established relationships in advance with the key people who could help you mitigate those circumstances.

Mark Squirrell [00:08:01]:
And quite often that’s in large organizations, who else is it within the organization that you can reach out to maybe for advice because I’ve been there before, maybe for support, maybe for somebody within the organization who who can now actually activate a whole lot of other resources for you because you’re on the front line and dealing with that, and now they’re one step removed and can start working on those other factors because they are removed from it. But also who who else is it outside of the organization? And for me, that became so evident with situations like being in the West Bank in Gaza where I would be literally on the front line dealing with bombs dropping out of the skies and and land mines and crowds and all the rest of it. But it was who could I reach out to on both the Israeli and the Palestinian side who could help ease and mitigate the circumstances around me, and I couldn’t be establishing those relationships in the moment. So it was absolutely critical that I took the time, the effort, the energy to go forward and build those relationships so that when I was making the phone calls, it was people answering the phone saying, hey, Squeeze. What can I do to help you? Not me starting the phone call with a, hi. My name’s Mark Skrill. I work for the World Food Programme. You may remember that we met three months ago.

Mark Squirrell [00:09:22]:
So it it it absolutely is critical to have those established relationships both in the organization and outside well and truly in advance of the crisis unfolding, and it does take an effort to do that. Sometimes we have to go through an emergency and then experience the feeling of I I probably should have actually taken more of an effort to to reach out and get to know that person a bit more, but that’s just experience, isn’t it? And so the next time, I’m I’m hoping that you’ve learned from that and you’re now in the easier times, go go out and actually build, connect, and and make sure that you’ve you’ve got those people at at an arms reach when when you need them.

Karissa Breen [00:10:01]:
So going back to your example before around, hi, my name’s Cruz. I do this blah blah blah blah blah. Do you think that generally people don’t think about the other person? What I mean by that question is a lot of people sort of is out for themselves, which I get. Everyone’s out for themselves. I understand that, but I mean more so they don’t know how to ask people or implement people so they it’s a win win situation. Whereas when people are outreaching on LinkedIn or whatever it is about something, it’s usually all about them, and they’re not really thinking about what does the other person get probably when that was coming up my mind as you were talking through that example. I’ve seen that a thousand times. So what how would you go about flipping that on its head with that example?

Mark Squirrell [00:10:42]:
Yeah. So, generally, when we do go into conversations, of course, we go in there with an intention of trying to either build a relationship so that our position is a little bit stronger, or we’re trying to get something out of that person. It’s classic sales sort of premise. But I think it is important that when we’re going into these conversations that we just don’t focus on ourselves. We’ve really gotta think about what this other person’s objectives are, what they’re trying to get out of it, and how we can actually assist them. I’ll give you a really simple and easy example to understand. If I was going into a meeting with a militant group, doesn’t matter if I’m in Somalia, Sudan, or Afghanistan, or it doesn’t in fact, it could be a conventional force as well. So I’m just talking about a an a belligerent group.

Mark Squirrell [00:11:30]:
It’s very easy for me to start talking a lot about what I’m doing and what I’m trying to achieve. Where I would be smarter is to not focus the conversation on that. It’s to, first of all, ask a whole lot of questions of them, which is first of all showing a whole lot of interest, but it’s garnering information for myself to understand what their objectives are, what their concerns would be, what their what their concerns would be for me and what I might be trying to achieve. And then try to ask some questions that will lead them to give some answers that are actually going to be the the the sorts of information that I wanna provide to them. And so, ultimately, most combatants are trying to fight for stability, and one of the greatest things in stabilizing a a community is the welfare of that community, and that’s exactly what I’m going in there to try and fulfill as well. I’m filling a gap that we would have here in Australia called social services, and that’s not present normally in these countries that I’m working in, and that’s why we’re there. And so when I’m starting to now alert through these questions and these conversations that I’m really just there to try and also provide that stability to the community, then I’m now getting less resistance to why I’m there. And I and I suppose what I’m trying to say is I I try to do that without explicitly saying it.

Mark Squirrell [00:13:02]:
I I try to actually get the person I’m speaking to to say it to me. And and that just means that now our relationship is more clearly understood by them by them because they’ve actually said it to me. But I but I think that’s just only that’s just a a clinical way of trying to make sure that we’ve got synergy with our objectives. One of the more important things of building a relationship is is building that trust with the other person, and that needs to be done sometimes in a very casual form and over a protracted period of time. So we need to get to know each other. We need to understand what ticks each other about and and outside of our workplace. Now I’m gonna maybe sound like I’m I’m saying you have to go out and become friends with everyone. I I don’t think that’s a good situation in a in a lot of circumstances.

Mark Squirrell [00:13:51]:
But somehow, we need to connect with that person, whether it be through understanding what their family situation is, what their interests are, what their hobbies are. And in some cases, I I’ve literally gone to the point of trying to make sure that I am adaptable enough to to go and do something with this person so that we actually have an enjoyable moment together. And and that’s really where we’re we’re later on going to have an a joint experience together, and and that’s where your your established relationship is is miles down the track rather than keeping it just purely around work. In some circumstances, that’s not possible. We do need to keep, you know, really clear delineations between our relationships with with in particular, for me, in in situations where I have to be seen as neutral. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t have good conversation and and relaxed conversation so that we can get to know each other as a human.

Karissa Breen [00:14:47]:
I think this is really important because in our industry, this is often a big conversation that people will ask me about, and I’m nowhere near an expert. But I think where I believe the industry lacks is a lot of that social prowess. And I think that it’s something that in this security world, we’re dealing with a lot of different people in terms of the businesses, different parts of the business, media, etcetera. And I think it’s something that the the industry is trying to upskill on that front because, historically, a lot of these people that are sort of in these senior roles have been technically competent perhaps, and so now they’re trying to bring up this social element to their so I think that this is a really important topic to discuss because, again, there’s not necessarily a playbook on how to do this. But one of the things that you were speaking about is in security or cybersecurity, people have this negative connotation to salespeople because they’re just like to your point around, they already know if a salesperson is coming to you, they’re gonna try to sell you something.

Mark Squirrell [00:15:56]:
Mhmm. And so

Karissa Breen [00:15:56]:
people are already on the back foot. So how would you sort of, to use your military vernacular, disarm someone on that front? Because soon as someone has sales or business development manager, people feel like, oh, straight away, this person is not being genuine. They’re just trying to sell me something to hit their sales quota.

Mark Squirrell [00:16:14]:
Yeah. Well, I the thing that comes immediately to mind is realizing that even in sales, you’re probably not gonna get the sales on the first round of either conversation or or your sales pitch. So it’s about not focusing on trying to to get everything on the first occasion. So I would often be spending months trying to get to know someone before I’m actually trying to get a result or get a an answer from them. So for example, if I wanted to get in access to a community, my sales pitch is on this occasion, I could go straight in there day one and say, hey. I wanna get into this village because we know that there’s a a problem with malnutrition. That’s probably not gonna work. So the best thing I can do is not focus on that in the first conversation and probably not in the first few conversations.

Mark Squirrell [00:17:02]:
It’s about just getting to know that person and, again, letting them try to tell me what I wanna hear. And that’s all done by not me telling them to be a parent and actually paraphrase me, but it’s to get them to try to arrive at my position through my questions and through my interest in them and what they’re trying to achieve. And if we can do that, then we’ll probably find that the final sales pitch just comes along really easily, or they may actually you might not even have to do your sales pitch. They might actually just come to you with a request. And in this instance, literally, could you please come in and now help our people? Because we do have an issue with child malnutrition.

Karissa Breen [00:17:46]:
So now I wanna sort of slightly switch gears and talk about pressure. Now depends on who you speak to. You’re gonna say, I’m under pressure. I’m under pressure. And as you know, in our world, we’ve got, you know, cyber breaches where the pressure gets extreme because you’ve got media knocking down your door. You’ve got your CEO asking what’s happening, your general counsel, and customers raging on social media. Now maybe make sense of this because given your experience, your pedigree, and your background, how do you operate under extreme amounts of pressure? Like you said, there are bombs dropping out of the sky. I would like to think that that is an extreme level of pressure, not just, oh, I’ve got a lot of emails I gotta get to today.

Karissa Breen [00:18:34]:
And I look, you know, pressure is relative to everyone, but that’s why I wanted to bring you on there to say that you’ve been in these quite extreme cases. How do you handle that?

Mark Squirrell [00:18:43]:
Look. Definitely, I would agree with you. When I look at you describing it that way, I think, yeah, that is can it get any worse than having a kinetic threat? You know, something that’s physically very, very likely to take out your own life or one of your team members around you in a split second. But I think back to those moments, and then I think back to my life here in Australia where I’m trying to run a business, and I’ve got the pressures of a family, and I’ve got work pressures as well, of course, and that level of pressure can easily be exactly the same. And it’s so it’s all it is all relative. It can be found in every environment, and I’m not sure that in actual fact, pressures I felt overseas are any different to the pressures that all of us here in Australia or in other developed countries can feel as well. The work pressures can be, and family pressures, and health pressures, or whatever they are, can can be equally as as challenging. But more importantly, to your point, what is it that allows me to be comfortable with those spaces is a level of excitement that I have given myself from the first few years of being an adult.

Mark Squirrell [00:20:01]:
And that was when I first stepped into the military. I joined and started realizing that I was had strengths in that area, but I started to get excited by the challenge of seeing whether or not I could be as successful as possible in the most adverse part of the military. And so that’s when I put my hand up to become a member of the first commando regiment, which is one of our special forces units. And I jumped onto that selection course with so much positive energy because I just wanted to see how I could perform. And I realized that it’s that positive energy by going forward into the challenge With that sort of attitude is what allows you to have that success, and I then just carried that on and build it into my lifestyle. So whenever things were getting tough, I told myself, no. This is an act this is actually an opportunity for you to demonstrate your competency. And so when things were getting tough overseas, I thought, great.

Mark Squirrell [00:21:03]:
This is good. This is now an opportunity for me to excel, so get in there. And and do a good job, and it’ll be recognized, and you’ll get the rewards. So the mindset comes with your own attitude and approach towards the difficult times. How was I preparing myself for that? Well, it all happened gradually. It’s not like I took one pill or took a needle in the arm and all of a sudden I was transformed into somebody who was comfortable with dealing with adversity. I I look back now and I realize that that military training was just perfect because it was a safe space because we weren’t at war in the It was a safe space for me to test myself. And so training is absolutely critical to preparing ourselves for the real ringside bout.

Mark Squirrell [00:21:50]:
We we can’t just jump inside the ring and expect ourselves to perform without a whole level of training that needs to be done under, as lifelike situations as possible to prepare ourselves for that moment. And then that training is what gives you the confidence to step up and say, yeah. I’m I’m ready to go. And so when I was overseas, I was ready to go. And then when I went from one conflict, I made errors, but I learned from that. And within a few years, I started to become very comfortable with that environment. And now that’s we have to be a little bit careful you don’t go too far and become complacent. So you have to constantly remind yourself of that.

Mark Squirrell [00:22:27]:
But I think that’s what allowed me to step onto, for example, Mount Everest with a whole level of confidence that I would succeed because I was ready and aware that I was going to be dealing with a whole lot of challenge on the mountain. There was going to be fatigue. There was going to be bad weather. There was gonna be extreme exposure to that weather and changing weather, but also heights. But I, again, looked at every one of those and thought, that’s exciting. I I’ve I’m really excited and wanting that to be a part of my journey because I know that’s what’s going to beat a few people back. And if I can get it myself in the right headspace, I will be one of the people who come back with a successful summit. And so I did.

Mark Squirrell [00:23:10]:
And so now I am running this company that is preparing others for it, and I cannot emphasize enough the importance of training, but making sure that that training is really close to as close as possible as as close as possible a simulation for the the real moment. And if you can, you wanna build in the fatigue, the adrenaline, the clouded headspace that you know that you’re going to have because the more and more we can push ourselves into that environment, then the more comfortable we are with it, which allows us to then be able to make, you know, good decisions under and within that pressure. We we do that through physical simulation if possible through our organization, Global Frontline. We’ve also jumped on this bandwagon of virtual reality as soon as that came out, you know, just over just under ten years ago and kitted ourselves out with a hundred virtual reality headsets. And we come in and we film situations in side workplaces, inside the environment with the real people dealing with the real stress, and then we ask everybody to go through the videos, but we’re always finishing them with a decision point. So as soon as the goggles are coming out, people are required to make a decision. And a lot of the time, I’m asking them to do that as an individual and make a commitment to a piece of paper. So we’re not going around the room and asking Mary to give an answer and then John, who’s now got the benefit of hearing what Mary said, and then on to Paul, who’s now heard what two other people have said.

Mark Squirrell [00:24:46]:
We want individuals to have to make a decision under pressure and make a commitment to it, and that’s why writing it down is just so important. And then we’re not scared to call people out. If people are not able to make those clear decisions under pressure, then we need to be unpacking that and and working out why it is. We’ve we did a whole lot of training with, a paramedic organization. I won’t mention who it was, and it was absolutely fascinating to hear how people who had gone through the exact same training and then went into this simulation with us through the virtual reality all came out with a variety of different answers as to what they would do under that particular set of circumstances. And that that was because they were interpreting the standard operating procedure, which had been given to them in the theory training, completely differently, and it was mainly driven by their age, so their previous exposure to high risk situations and their experience within the organization. So just because somebody is older doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re necessarily better with understanding that that particular work environment. Gender and genealogy and all of that were were absolutely variables as well, but it was that exposure to previous circumstances that that was driving people.

Mark Squirrell [00:26:07]:
Some wanted to stay and help the patient. Others were getting out and and leaving straight away. I’m digressing a little bit. But, yeah, that simulation training is absolutely critical. And it doesn’t mean that everyone in the organization needs to be 100% and okay to deal with every different situation. But for sure, you need a group within the organization who can step up and take charge of the wider grouping of people in the moment without any hesitation. That’s that’s what’s gonna allow that that organization to to manage mitigate that particular crisis. I’ll just give you a very simple example of where I noticed that was in with again, with the World Food Programme in Nepal when I went back the second time during the earthquake that hit there in 2015.

Mark Squirrell [00:26:58]:
All of us had done some training in what to do when there’s tremors after the the main earthquake. We knew that was going to to happen. But I realized that training was limited, and we couldn’t get everyone absolutely perfect. But we needed to make sure that we had, you know, at least 10% understanding what what needed to be done in the first five minutes because those 10% then were critical to managing the response of everybody else. And so that investment in, I suppose, when we look when we look at fire drills, for example, is, you know, who are the wardens? Are they actually capable of taking charge of of that wider group? Because they’re the ones who are gonna really create that perfect, response.

Karissa Breen [00:27:43]:
So going back to your experiences in these war zones, etcetera, would you say that’s increased your stress watermark, like your resiliency because you’ve gone through these really intense, traumatic, extreme circumstances. So would you say that people in life, like, when they go through really hard times, of course, it it increases that watermark so you can handle things a little bit better. So when you’re a kid, obviously, things are a lot more stressful for them when you become an adult because you’ve gone through a lot more things. Does that same sort of approach apply, would you say, in your situation?

Mark Squirrell [00:28:16]:
I would say, in general, yes. I I think, generally speaking, some of us are probably you know, it’s in our DNA. It’s it’s possibly, mindset is is there, and it it it may have been because of our childhood, like, something’s happened that’s allowed us to to deal with stress a little bit more easily. But I also think a lot a lot of us who do quite well with understanding how to deal with stress is, first of all, understanding how to acknowledge it. So I I am very conscious of when I’m feeling like I’m under a whole lot of pressure. And so first of all, that alerts me to go, okay. Be really careful now because there’s a whole lot of things that are starting to compound my thoughts process. And so just make sure that I’m I am making rational decisions now.

Mark Squirrell [00:29:07]:
I also think that I’m very good at continuing to even outside of my workspace, so let’s go outside of the war zones now, to continuing to prepare myself for difficult moments by actively pushing pushing myself into those difficult moments, and I do that through through sport. So I I really enjoy pushing myself to, I’ll say fatigue, but I’m not collapsing all the time. But I I like pushing myself where I I know my body’s, you know, under a bit of stress. I also think that it’s really been helpful for me to, outside of work again, to do a whole lot of activities that, again, stress me out. And and I’ve done that with so much enjoyment. The most obvious one would be rock climbing. So forget the whole climb on Mount Everest. Well before that, when I was in the military, I was fortunate enough to get a bit of a buzz from the abseiling and cliff climbing that we were doing as a commander, and I thought, this is just awesome fun.

Mark Squirrell [00:30:13]:
So I started pursuing it in my own personal life. And, you know, when you’re hanging above a cliff with a very small ledge holding on with your dear fingers and you’re 30 or 50 meters above ground, you really feel the pressure of I’ve gotta get this right. And I’m starting to get a bit of a panic going on in my head. I’ve gotta calm down. So get it right or the outcome’s gonna be pretty nasty. Of course, we’re always hooked on to safety lines. And so generally speaking, we’re pretty safe, but doesn’t really that that’s pretty pretty mute point when you’re when you’re feeling those those sensations. So I suppose for anyone out there, if you are wanting to build up your own resilience, then first of all, don’t shy away from jumping into an opportunity that as it presents.

Mark Squirrell [00:31:08]:
That’s allowing you to jump in with that positive attitude and approach that I talked about earlier. But just think about what you’re doing outside of your workspace and in the rest of your world that can help gear you for those really challenging moments and to get out there and get into some challenge. Do whatever it is that freaks you out. I think everyone’s fully aware that as a public speaking, standing up and speaking in front of an audience, I think, is one of the most terrifying things for a lot of people on this planet. Well, if it is, get out there and actually do it because over I can guarantee it. I I sort of wasn’t as bad as most, but, you know, initially, ten years ago, it was a little bit daunting. But now I’m absolutely up there, and my heart rate doesn’t change one bit because I’ve just done it so many times now. It’s just over and over and over again, and thoroughly enjoy it now.

Mark Squirrell [00:31:58]:
I get a real buzz from it. So don’t hold back when things are getting a little bit challenging for you. Just jump right in.

Karissa Breen [00:32:05]:
Okay. So then a couple of other things as well. So going back to stress, now there’s medical professionals out there who will say you do need a bit of stress in your life. But how do you find the line between a bit of stress and then too much where people are, like, saying they’ve got adrenal fatigue, chronic fatigue, they’re stressed to the limit, they can’t sleep. Where do you find the line would you say? Say? And maybe you’re not the right person to ask just given what you’ve done in your with your background. But do you have any thoughts on that?

Mark Squirrell [00:32:31]:
Yeah. Absolutely. No. I I feel it as well, and it goes back to that acknowledgment. So first of all, in you’re in a crisis situation. Acknowledge that, yeah, this is a difficult situation now. I’ve got to make good decisions. But it’s also about acknowledging that over time, that is going to weigh you down.

Mark Squirrell [00:32:46]:
And so if this is a short term crisis, it only lasts for twenty four hours, okay, most of what I’m about to say probably doesn’t apply. But when it when we’re talking about anything that’s over more than two or three days, that’s when I start telling myself, okay. This is not normal, and I’ve gotta continue to tell myself that it’s just not a normal environment, and I have to be very conscious of that. So I would be doing things like making sure that I do have some time out. We are not functional if we are working eighteen, nineteen hours a day. So you must give yourself enough time to recharge your batteries through the, you know, eating good food, not jumping on the easy fixes like the caffeine, the food, and or, you know, unhealthy food. And, you know, alcohol for sure is is not a healthy one for you at all in in times of a crisis. Making sure that you’re getting that sleep, and that can be really challenging, of course, because we know when you’re stressed, it it’s very difficult to close your eyes for more than two hours before you wake up and start thinking about the next problem.

Mark Squirrell [00:33:50]:
So acknowledging that things over time are only going to build up and make it even more difficult for you. So how do we do that in a conflict zone when if you think about it, as soon as you step in to it, it’s probably gonna be like that going forward? Well, we have a very clear r and r policy in difficult duty stations. So on the most difficult ones, we’re only allowed to go in for one month, and then we must come out for one week. So we know now when we step in on day one that it’s going to be difficult and challenging, but we’ve really gotta only do it for about twenty five to thirty days. And then we go out, and it is absolutely critical that in those five to seven days that we have out, that we’re not going to a place and fatiguing ourselves again through a whole lot of alcohol consumption and partying, like, we we’ve got to let ourselves recharge and and distract ourselves from from all of those things that are keeping us up when we’re inside the conflict zone so that we can relax our body and then go back in. Then over a period of time, I noticed that eighteen months to two years in some of these places, I was starting to become dysfunctional because I was starting to get emotionally drawn in to the challenges inside that conflict zone. Essentially, I was taking one side as against the other. So I I I won’t give you an example because it will start to show that I I may have some bias, which is absolutely something we have to be very careful of when we’re working with a a neutral entity such as the United Nations.

Mark Squirrell [00:35:27]:
It’s absolutely critical that we remain open to both sides. But when I am starting to become agitated and frustrated in my conversations to others, I go now it’s time for me to remove myself from here. I just can’t be doing it. And I suppose that’s what we would need to be thinking about here in Australia. If we’re in a high pressure job and, you know, the challenge of being in there is exciting for for maybe months or maybe a couple of years. But now we’re we’re challenged by some of the people that we’re working with. We’ll do it for a little while, but if you no longer are being productive, then maybe it’s time for a change. And, you know, that’s sometimes a little bit hard, but it’s probably the best thing for you and the organization that you’re around.

Mark Squirrell [00:36:13]:
And that that’s okay. It just means that now you you find yourself a new home from a work perspective. And that’s what we would do in the UN as well. Every when we’re in a really difficult place, every two to three years, we’ll get moved on to another one because we we understand that’s what’s gonna happen.

Karissa Breen [00:36:28]:
So what I’m hearing from what you’re saying, would you think that time boxing so going back into your time, you do one one month in the war zone and then you come out for one week. So is that would you say that’s a better way of managing that pressure cooker environment? Because you know, okay. I’ve gotta be here for a month, but then I still get a week off to, you know, r and r. Would you say that helps towards the the dealing with the stress?

Mark Squirrell [00:36:52]:
Absolutely. I I if you try to stay it out any longer in some of these places, you you’re gonna be burnt out. These are big long days, and then you’ve got the emotional challenge of seeing what’s going on around you, and then you’ve got the physical threats that you’re dealing with. It’s just not sustainable. We we are only sending the best that we’ve got, those who are conditioned to those environments, but still it’s healthy for them to come out and and have a breather. So this is one of the reasons why we’ve got a lot of returning servicemen and women from overseas because they’re going into conflict zones for six to twelve months in those same work environment, but they’re under even more of a direct threat. And that does harm to their brains. And, essentially, that’s where you’ve got not a broken leg, but you’ve got a broken brain, and it comes back and it it’s it’s taking years and years to try and find a recovery to that.

Mark Squirrell [00:37:46]:
And in some cases, it doesn’t at all. So it’s real, and we need to be acknowledging that as an organization and as individuals as well. And and both together, individuals, you need to look after yourself. Organizations, you need to look after your staff.

Karissa Breen [00:38:00]:
So you mentioned before in your trainings that you’re conducting today that you sort of assess people on how they make a decision under pressure. What would you or how would you determine if someone’s made a good decision or not under pressure?

Mark Squirrell [00:38:16]:
It is quite often hard to determine that because there’s so many variables and that are unknown. Assumptions need to be made. So I suppose, for me, one of the most critical components of going through a simulation is the debrief that you have afterwards so that people can now start unpacking their own decisions and what they did, but they can also start learning and understanding what others did, and and they may well pick up some good tips, ideas, strategies from from others. And what that’s doing is that when they’re facing a similar situation, it’s very hard to simulate something that will be a % the same, but it’s arming them with options. So first of all, when the crisis hit, we’ve gotta get that clear mind. So we’ve, you know, we removed the fog of war, which is where we’re being completely overburdened by the stresses and and the variables around us, but we can make now a clear reflection on what we’ve heard and done in our simulation training that allows us then to make a good decision going forward. Because in a crisis, if we’re not making decisions and early decisions, then we’re probably not pushing ourselves down a particular pathway. What I mean by that is if if you’re not making a decision, then you’re really at the mercy of the conflict around you.

Mark Squirrell [00:39:40]:
Things are only probably going to get worse, and a lot of the pathways that we had at the start of the crisis will slowly be taken away from us. So an absence of decision making is really an absence of leadership. Leaders need to step up, and every one of us is responsible for that in a crisis, And we need to start making those decisions so that we are pushing ourselves down a pathway which is probably different to that which we thought we were going to be doing on that day or in that particular crisis, but at least we’re getting on top of ourselves and our organization. It might be more costly. It might be more protracted, but but we’re in charge now. And that that’s a better outcome than just sitting there and waiting. There can be huge opportunities for loss and others making well, not others, but for the circumstances to become even more difficult to get out of. And I suppose from a financial from a business perspective, sometimes it’s just better to take the loss and, you know, and get yourself out of harm’s way early rather than just wait.

Karissa Breen [00:40:40]:
Okay. This is interesting. So I was scrolling through Instagram reels the other day. There was a lady on a podcast. I can’t remember her name, but she was saying, just make a decision even if it’s the wrong one. Now would you say with giving your, you know, training and everything that you just discussed with me already, do you think that’s better, or do you think taking maybe a more of a a halt slightly longer to make more of a a better decision? Or and I’m not just saying, oh, we’re gonna make a random flippant decision. How would you weight that? Because like you said just before, it’s better to, you know, cut the loss and move on quickly rather than going, oh, what are we gonna do? And umming and arrowing about it. So how how does that sit with you when I ask that question?

Mark Squirrell [00:41:23]:
Well, in the immediate moment, yes, you need to hold. Take a deep breath and, you know, thirty seconds later, go, okay. I’m in a crisis. So if we’re just talking about short term, yes, you do need to halt and then make a measured decision. But now if we just take it out a little bit further to, yeah, to the first hour, couple of hours, if you’re not starting to make decisions right then about where are my people, what are my capabilities, what is the threat that we’re facing, and starting to get information in, I mean, that that’s all making decisions. Then once you’ve got as much information as you can within a relative time frame, Again, I it’s very it’s very much determined on what we’re facing here. You do need to start applying your plan or disregarding the plan and redirecting your staff into the new plan. Now with that, you, I’m hoping, are starting to set yourself your primary objective, whatever that might be.

Mark Squirrell [00:42:19]:
It’s either looking at the financial loss that you you’re going to inevitably incur. It’s the physical safety of your staff. It’s the physical protection of your computer equipment, whatever it is. But you you now have to make a decision that’s going to hopefully get you the outcome that you want. So you set your subject your objective and you go to your team, how are we gonna get to here? Let’s look at it. Let’s activate it. Let’s get to there and make sure it happens. That’s the bit if you just wait and wait and wait, you’re probably not gonna get there.

Mark Squirrell [00:42:53]:
So you’ve you might have to make the hard decision, but you you have to now start redirecting to get to that that objective that you set yourself. And that’s where I I’ve just seen on too many occasions, We either as individuals or, you know, the organization that I’ve been a part of has just waited, just hoping that the problem’s gonna will either simmer or it will just go away very quickly. Most of the time, it doesn’t. And and we can just hope, but hope’s not a plan. And so I’d say start making decisions early. If you do find that you’ve now made an incorrect decision based on variables that you were just not aware of, so you had to make some assumptions, well, that’s where your flexibility comes in. So you’d you’ve now got to reassess and maybe take a different pathway. But as leaders, if you’re not out there being seen to be making decisions, you’re probably not leading.

Karissa Breen [00:43:55]:
Okay. I wanna follow this a little bit more. So going back to the making of decisions in a corporation. Now as you know, big companies, there’s thousands of people that make up these corporations. What I’ve experienced working in corporates historically, I’ve been working for fifteen years, is that people don’t wanna make a decision because it backfires. If they make the wrong one, they could get fired, or Sally and Joanne won’t like the decision, and therefore, it creates a social conflict internally. In small organizations or or smaller companies, people make decisions quickly because there’s less people to impress and ask and people’s egos. So would you say sometimes these big corporate behemoths are crippled by they’re more worried about what their peers will think about the decision versus just making the decision that’s best for the company and making the decision and stick buying it whether it’s right or wrong.

Mark Squirrell [00:44:44]:
Yeah. That’s there is obviously a whole lot of dynamics going on with relationships and with people’s careers that influence decision making. So I think it the way we’ve done this quite well in the United Nations is that, for myself, for example, as a security risk manager, I am not ultimately the one who makes a decision. The person at the top of the tree in that particular country is the one who is ultimately responsible for security. I am seen as an adviser only. Now what that allows me to do is to provide advice with the knowledge that, let’s say I do get it wrong, I’m not ultimately going to be responsible for it. It also forces the person at the top of the tree. They really will be challenged to go against my advice because you’d like to think that I’m the expert in the room.

Mark Squirrell [00:45:42]:
So that person then will have to come up with a very big justification as to why they’re going down a different pathway. And so I suppose when you’ve got experts that are expected to know the right result and should, then give them the freedom to do that with the knowledge that the ultimate responsibility will not be put back on them. And I’m assuming that would work back very quickly back into the cybersecurity space. You know, if the boss says, just tell me what you know needs to be done, then you give them that true, honest advice. And if you’ve got a good established relationship with that person where you trust each other, then the boss will take it on and the boss will activate it. And I am a big firm advocate of organizations having a a very balanced leadership structure where I wouldn’t say laissez faire where it’s, you know, all open and fluffy Duffy is is a probably a correct one. But I’m I’m right against the military autocratic one because I’ve I’ve seen the limitations in having people at the top putting out orders and then the troops actually not being able to ever really contribute to the decision making. I I think it is just so important when we’ve got a whole team contributing to the decision making.

Mark Squirrell [00:47:03]:
But in a crisis, that autocracy really has to come into play. So the structure needs to be there so that the information is everyone is contributing, but the decision making, the final say is being very clearly made by those who are in charge. Because in a crisis, you you can’t have debate. It it it has to be very clear and defined. So I think that setting up that structure in advance of a crisis is absolutely critical, and that’s one of the things that needs to be tested during that simulation training as well.

Karissa Breen [00:47:35]:
And then it’s going back to the leadership side of things. So would you say in your experience, like you said, people that are not making decisions aren’t leading. People are making decisions on the frontline. And so, therefore, would you say that engenders trust? Because they’re like, okay. I’ve made this decision. Whether people agree or not agree, they’ve stand behind and say, this is what we’re gonna do. Would you say that gets people to think, like, this person is a leader as opposed to someone that perhaps doesn’t want to make a call or is making the call eleventh hour. Would you say that’s a key characteristics of a leader?

Mark Squirrell [00:48:11]:
I think everyone who’s in the workplace, whether they like it or not, is a leader. They need to, first of all, be able to lead themselves. And then as we move up through the organogram, we are starting to take on more leadership responsibility for others around us. And and then it just becomes more built into the job description as people move again up through the the tree. So leadership is a key component of everyone’s workplace environment. And but when it comes to a crisis, that’s where it needs to be understood that those in those critical roles, this is when they need to step up and show that leadership. So, again, for me, when things were going wrong, that was my main trigger to go, I really now am turning into the leader of this organization right alongside the boss of the day because, like I said before, they’re they’re ultimately responsible as well. And and if the two of us are working really closely together, then then we’re providing the best leadership that we can across the organization.

Karissa Breen [00:49:19]:
So, Squizz, I would love to speak to you for hours and hours and hours. I just looked down at my clock, and I was like, I’ve always been speaking to you for an hour. So I’d love to sort of just get maybe some closing comments or final thoughts that you think that you’d like to leave our audience with today.

Mark Squirrell [00:49:35]:
Well, I’d say when you’re feeling a little bit under the pump, first of all, acknowledge it and understand that that’s quite normal in our day to day lives now, whether it be in work or outside of work. But don’t be depressed by it. Be motivated by it because it’s an opportunity for you to excel. And when you’re now acknowledging that things are not going so well around you, remember this moment and remember what you can do to prepare yourself for another one coming up because it’s inevitable. And so don’t ever shy away from challenge. Get out there and push yourself both physically and mentally in your own space, however you choose to do that. And understand that that’s just building your resilience, which is making you a better person for the challenges ahead. And always remember that as strong and capable as we are over time, the protracted circumstances, if they’re stressful, will wear us down, and and we’ve gotta look after ourselves for that.

Mark Squirrell [00:50:33]:
Good luck with your decision making under pressure and your stressful life because, you know, it’s a part of life, but it’s it’s also an extremely rewarding part of it when we get it right.