George Barnes [00:00:00]:
So our whole family comes from the standpoint of service to our nation. Our daughter didn’t get drilled to do it. She came around to do it on her own. You know, she went to industry first because the money was great, but she gave up 40% of her salary after two years to come into the government. And why did she do that? Because she felt this need to do something bigger than herself and to have a sense of doing something nobody else can do.

Karissa Breen [00:00:42]:
Joining me now is George Barnes, former Deputy Director at NSA and President, Cyber Practice at Red Cell Partners. And today we’re discussing your journey from the NSA to the private sector. So, George, thanks for joining and welcome.

George Barnes [00:00:55]:
Oh, it’s great to be here. I’m just really looking forward to our discussion and going over the highlights of what I’ve done and what I’m learning nowadays. Yeah.

Karissa Breen [00:01:03]:
So, George, you and I met recently in person at the 2020 Partners event in Miami for context. And we sort of spoke a little bit about your background, which I was really fascinated in. So I really, I’m really excited to get into that. And I want to highlight your career because it is quite extensive. You know, a lot of stuff. You’ve been in the game a long time. And I really want our listeners to appreciate your pedigree. So maybe start, like, tell us everything.

Karissa Breen [00:01:31]:
What comes up when I ask you that question?

George Barnes [00:01:33]:
Sure. You know, I started as an electrical engineer and my father had worked for the U.S. navy. And so he had exposed me to national defense, the concept of our allies and our position and our focus and purpose in the world. And so that was at the formative stages as I was growing up around him and his midst. And our family was always into service, public service, and trying to do things that mattered in society. And so that kind of launched me into electrical engineering. I worked for the Navy when I was in college, but then coming out, I learned about the National Security Agency, which had been in Maryland, but I never knew it existed all the way.

George Barnes [00:02:14]:
At least halfway through college, I didn’t know. And it was not even 20 miles away because back then it was no such agency. It was very secretive, not well understood. Not many people knew about it. They just knew of it from the random book that might have come out, which did or didn’t really reflect what it was about. So I was enamored by it because I had some study partners that were co ops as they were doing their studies. And that gave me some exposure. I applied and I got in.

George Barnes [00:02:41]:
My journey started. So I. I came in right at the ground level, right out of school. Took me nine months to get my clearance, which was normal back then, and I think is pretty much normal now. But I waited and I didn’t take on other job. I took on basically menial jobs while I was waiting because I didn’t want to start a new career and then have to set back and try to restart this one. I really wanted to get into the government. It had been the path that I had always really looked toward given my parents.

George Barnes [00:03:08]:
And so I had my eyes set on government. And what NSA represented was just appetizing to me. And so I jumped in and I started my career. I was able to have several overseas assignments, which was one of the benefits of working in national security and the intelligence community. And so I got to live for three and a half years in Germany, and then later in my career, I lived for three years in London. And those were just wonderful opportunities, both for family, but also to get a perspective of the world more broadened and the United States role in the world, how we’re regarded, the role we have, the purpose we must pursue. And so those really motivated me to stay engaged. And, you know, I went up through various stages of technical activities, technical leadership, and then organizational leadership.

George Barnes [00:03:57]:
Ended up as the deputy director for my last six and a half years, from 2017 to 2023 when I retired. So that’s 36 and a half years in a couple of minutes.

Karissa Breen [00:04:07]:
Yeah, well, I mean, there’s a lot going on. One of the things you said, which is interesting, so you said your dad was obviously in the US Navy. Would you say other people that have taken a similar path to you, their parents were from like a military sort of background as well? Because, I mean, a lot of those people have influence on what their parents did to like, oh, like when I grow up, want to be like my dad or something like that. Like, we’ve seen a lot of that then. Did you say you were heavily influenced by that as well?

George Barnes [00:04:29]:
I was heavily influenced by it. And also, you know, I was in a community that was very rural and the where I worked, which is now where the Navair is down in St. Mary’s County, Maryland. That was the big deal. That was the big employer. We went to air shows when I was growing up. So, of course, as a kid, I was enamored by Blue Angels and all the aircraft, and my dad got to work on Aircraft and so subsequently I did when I was in college. And so just that whole concept of airplanes, jets and those types of things which young boys are and girls are interested in.

George Barnes [00:05:04]:
And then, but then just really the focus on serving. And so I do meet and have met throughout my career a lot of people, families who kind of their those exposures, they sow deep seeds. Our daughter actually works in the intelligence community as an example. She started off an industry out of the university, but after a few years she decided that she wanted to follow the path of service to our country. And so it does. I think it’s probably due to exposure. You feel that calling and you get exposed to the things that people in our governments get to do that are unique and different from what many in the private sector get to do. And so that gives you a sense of direction, purpose, relevance, all manner of positive feedback that comes from serving.

Karissa Breen [00:05:52]:
Yeah. And you know what’s interesting as well, George, like when I met you originally at the 2020 partner event in person, and then some of the other folks there as well, one of the things that was quite obvious to me was just driven by a mission. I’ve noticed that obviously I’ve been living here for four months now, but I have really noticed that a lot with US based citizens. Just maybe the level of drive and the commitment to the mission, perhaps in other countries. And then you mentioned before, you obviously did a stint in Germany and London. Like what do you think their sort of sentiments are? Do you think it’s similar? I just find that this is this US based, like mission centric. This is what we’re here to do. And I think that it just stands out so prominently for me.

George Barnes [00:06:31]:
It’s that and it was also for me and you know, many of my peers, a sense of responsibility even. And so given all the negative forces in the world, I mean, when I started my NSA career, it was the end of the Cold War. And so we were in locked, staring down the Soviet Union and trying to bring them to the point that they actually came, which was wonderful and it was neat to be in service at that time. But from then forward, just the whole concept of the things that we cherish in our democracies, the things that our democracies stand for and the things that the autocracies stand for, and those are juxtaposed against each other. And so being in the US having had the role we had in World War II, coming out working with the global community to create all the things that have created nominal stability and peace for so many Decades now, just this feeling that we had a role that we needed to do our part to sustain that, persist it and spread it to the degree we could. And so I did feel this push and a passion to be in the middle of that, to be relevant, providing my part with others. And so that was not limited just to government people. I mean, I’ve had many, many counterparts in industry and academia who have been connected to these missions from their vantage points.

George Barnes [00:07:54]:
And so by no means do you have to be in the government, but I chose that pat path and it basically created all the opportunities I’ve had, the opportunities to actually have impact and then the opportunities to just have rich exposures such as living overseas, traveling the world, visiting war zones and seeing the trauma that our forces were exposed to, but also the trauma of the civilians who lived in these war torn areas. And so being in the U.S. i just always felt the drive to be part of doing something better for the world.

Karissa Breen [00:08:28]:
So then to your point, you’ve been in the, you know, you’ve been at NSA. Well, you were, sorry, in the NSA for like 35, 36 years. So you would have really seen things change over that time. So I’m sort of curious to understand how has the function of cybersecurity evolved, obviously the central pillar of intelligence, defense, geopolitical sort of leverage as well. So walk me through how that’s changed. There’s quite a substantial amount of time as well.

George Barnes [00:08:56]:
Yeah, significant change. Everything’s changed. And look at the rate of change right now. In my career, I lived through several substantive changes in global society driven by technology, really. And that’s technology for interconnectedness, but also even technology for medicine. I mean, just look at the ways technology has matured, manifested itself and had an impact on how our society lives and operates. And so, you know, when I came into nsa, you know, we did have computers. They were standalone IBM PCs and there were some networked computers that I didn’t have access to my first couple years, but it was very different.

George Barnes [00:09:36]:
But cybersecurity was in its formative stage. It had been around since, you know, smoke signals in some respects. You know, Indians used security, communication, security and cyber security grew out of that as the world became connected more, more and more. And so, you know, the foundation of NSA and our partnerships with the five eyes nations really centered around cryptography and both making those codes and breaking them. And so, and many know the stories of World War II and the role that at that time, most notably the US and the UK played in breaking significant ciphers. Used by the Japanese and the Germans, and they saved untold lives and shortened the war by a lot of time. And so that was kind of the foundation. And then of course, it went beyond cryptography.

George Barnes [00:10:28]:
Cryptography still is around and it’s more important now than ever because everything in society is connected. It used to just be governments, but now all of us use all of these devices, all these apps. All of our information is out there, and we rely on cryptography to try to keep it secure from others. That’s all been surrounded by digital networking. And so cybersecurity took off. When the Internet took off, that really created a whole new dimension, bridging from point to this whole global mesh of networks that need to be secured. And the whole protocol stack needs trust and security at every layer. And so being at NSA through that whole time, I watched those different evolutions of technology and some revolutionary technology come into the fore, get mainstreamed.

George Barnes [00:11:17]:
And then we not only had to figure out how to secure it for our own defenses, but also how to understand how to get through it. When it came to getting into our adversaries who were using advanced technologies. In the Cold War, there were basically two worlds. There was the Soviet world and its span of technologies that were indigenous, indigenously produced, and then the Western world that melted down a bit after the fall of Wall, and everybody pursued kind of a common set of technologies. But now that’s changing again. As an example, China is pursuing its own trust stack, its own software stack, operating system stack. And so they are kind of pulling away, in a manner of speaking, from the global community of networking. And that’s something that we have to be very mindful of, what it means for us, their participation, their influence in the things that we use, but also what they’re doing to try to secure themselves.

Karissa Breen [00:12:16]:
So one thing that’s interesting to me, George, as you were speaking, what was coming to my mind is if you look back on the 35, 36 years, would you say where we are today, with all the breaches that are happening and geopolitical tensions that are rising across even allied countries, but just more broadly, do you think that the problem has gotten worse? Now, I caveat. That was saying, like back in the day, even in the 90s, like we own the Internet only came out, like in terms of consumer level, like mid-90s, right. And then like television was like limited. You didn’t have all the channels that you had now, and you had like one newspaper in the town that you lived at. So do you think that the problem has always been this severe, but we weren’t exposed to it was. Now it’s like everyone’s got social media and camera phones and everyone can document more. So it maybe feels like more, but it’s kind of the same.

George Barnes [00:13:06]:
No, it’s. It’s actually more intensified just because these technologies have become interwoven with humanity. And look, we’re on the brink of a whole nother step change in that right now. It’s happening before us as we look at advanced technologies in AI and we talk about synthetic Personas and autonomous networks and autonomous agents taking on functions that heretofore only humans able to conduct. And so up until that point, we’ve had this continuous intensification in uptake and adoption of technology that has touched every corner of society. And, you know, one of the pivotal moments I look back on really, you know, the Internet, of course, and the dot com kind of came into creation, as you mentioned, in the mid to late 90s and then turn of the century. But then 2007 is when the first iPhone came out. And that basically brought networking into people’s hands.

George Barnes [00:14:02]:
You know, they had obviously started using networking and the Internet from their desktops and their laptops more and more. But when it came into your hand, and that mixed with the rise of social media and the rise of apps that could be developed and put on our phones for all manner of things that we could conceive and couldn’t conceive, we became a digital society. And we’ve leveraged that. And with every successive enhancement, we jump at the speed, the efficiency, the power of what data can do when harnessed through apps to perform functions that we want. And so there’s a reliance there that today’s society has that yesterday’s society didn’t have as much. And that’s very powerful, but it also can create weaknesses. And, you know, one of the things we’re struggling with now is in the age of AI, just the whole thing about education and what’s important for people to learn. You know, we’re on this continuous migration of technology.

George Barnes [00:15:04]:
And naturally, there’s certain things that I learned in school that people today don’t need to learn. But there are other things that I learned that people aren’t learning or they’re not having to learn because they have answers at their fingertips. And, and so education is a big question, you know, what is required to force the mind to develop, to be used, so that it can actually push us higher? And how does technology jeopardize some of that learning and brain development? Because Technology and access to data and information has become an easy crutch. And so we aren’t memorizing, we aren’t necessarily, we’re not developing our brains the same way. Now maybe that’s just okay and in retrospect it’ll be fine. But it’s a little bit scary now because I feel like we don’t remember anything because if we need something, we just type it in and the answer comes to us. And so I feel like we’re, our brains are becoming more transactional rather than deep thinking oriented.

Karissa Breen [00:15:58]:
Yeah, this is really interesting because I’ve spoken a little bit about this on the show and people have been expressing their concerns. So then, and I know we’re going to sort of talk about like employment, like, you know, how do people get into it, like as a younger generation, nsa, et cetera. But how does that really leave us? Because you’re right, like even before, like the iPhone came out, like you had to literally get like a map and like had to navigate somewhere or you had to remember how to go from your house to your workplace. Now you don’t need to do that. You just plug it in. You could go wherever. Now whilst that has created opportunity now I think that with this over reliance then like you said, we could just type it in and get an answer. How is this going to look then? I mean, what do you honestly think when I ask you that question, when you sit back, like, how is this going to impact like our society, our governments, how we’re going to protect our countries from a national cybersecurity perspective if people just aren’t remembering sort of things day to day?

George Barnes [00:16:55]:
Yeah, yeah. I think it’s an important period in our history and it looks back to this intersection of culture, education, purpose, opportunity. They’re all these macro things and they’re actually converging and intersecting. And so, you know, I think about, we have been very lucky in our country. We’ve in general, not ex, not exclusively by any means, but in general our, our standard of living is very high and we’ve enjoyed that for many, many years. I worry that it’s been, since it’s been more easy for us, those of us that have had access to it, and there’s a large number of us that have not, but those who’ve had access to it, it’s been easier. And I worry that, see, and I talk to colleagues about the change in work ethic and you know, when I came along, you know, my parents, you know, lived through the Great depression of the 30s, right? And so they had a very serious work ethic that kind of got pushed down to the next generation because I watched what they suffered through. My dad wasn’t able to get higher than a GS10 in the government because he didn’t finish his college degree because he had to leave and go work on the farm in World War II, blah, blah, blah.

George Barnes [00:18:08]:
And so they really, they worked, they focused. And I worry that when you look at a lot of the growing population, I worry about work ethic. Now it’s a matter of, okay, if I can just type into my map and I go and I go to work, I do this, you know, whenever I go down, I travel all over D.C. area. And so I use Waze because I need to get places. There’s a lot of traffic. And I know Waze will take me the most expeditious way because it’s dynamically learning about the traffic situation ahead. Right.

George Barnes [00:18:41]:
And so it’s, I’m seeing all kinds of areas that I never would have seen, but I basically put it into the hands of Waze to get me there because I know it’s thinking about it and I’m thinking about other things and that’s great. But luckily I’ve lived around here, so I kind of know where, where it’s taking me, whereas most people have it. And so a lot of people don’t know how to get places that they don’t have a navigator system. And so that’s just an easy example. But we’re at this point now. I mean, you’re, you’re seeing it in the news, you’re. I’m seeing it in industry where, you know, companies don’t want to hire, you know, junior software developers right out of school now because AI is taking over that role now, maybe that’s a natural progression, but we have a couple things happening. We have manufacturing is changing due to technology.

George Barnes [00:19:25]:
And so a lot of what has heretofore been pushed off to really offshore for the access to cheap labor. Well, that part of industry is now being automated and now the tech sector is being increasingly automated through software development, through AI engines. And so the big question is, what will happen to society? A piece of it will continue to go up, A piece of it might become stagnant. And, you know, that begs the question for what’s the employment? What are the employment opportunities? How do kids know what to pursue and learning that’s going to give them the confidence and security of a path towards, you know, independence and, you know, family security and those types of things. And So I think we’re both at an exciting time, but we’re also at a point where things are changing much more rapidly than we’re ready to deal with them. And so we need to make sure we don’t just run headlong without thinking through the ramifications, what we’re doing.

Karissa Breen [00:20:23]:
And how would you suggest that we deal with them? Because you make great points, and these are some of the points that people like when I’m talking to them, like, you know, hey, my, my kids at uni or college, like they kind of doing this, but I don’t know whether there’s longevity in that career. What do you think? So how do you think we’re dealing with this sort of stuff in the United States, but just, you know, across in Australia and New Zealand and these sort of places as well? Or do you think people are not dealing with it?

George Barnes [00:20:48]:
There are a lot of wonderful people that are trying to deal with it. The challenges? Well, there are a couple. Number one, not only are we in a situation of rapid technology uptake, we’re in a increasingly polarized world where we have a race for technology adoption, but also a race for technology supremacy. And so on the one hand, you know, we should be thoughtful about the adoption of some of these technologies because of the ramifications on society. On the other hand, if we sit here and think and we see it play out, the Chinese are rolling out all these new AI models and they’re going to do it whether or not we come along or not. And there will be a piece of society that, a large piece that will just go wherever the opportunity seems to be. And so if we pause, they’re not going to pause. And that’ll throw us deeper into things that we don’t understand they’re putting up for our access.

George Barnes [00:21:43]:
And so it’s a quandary. It’s a global issue. But it’s a global issue in the presence of a polarized world and also a world where, you know, we in the west and my exposure to China, we look at things differently from the standpoint of national security and the what constitutes espionage. You know, and I spent all my decades in the espionage and cyber business, and we separated government from the markets and industry. And so it was a very clean, discrete line. We didn’t do anything to support our free market society. And that was just kind of the rules of the domain. Well, China’s not doing that.

George Barnes [00:22:27]:
They’re collecting intelligence to favor their companies to compete back against us. And they’re drilling into our networks and our Companies to steal their intellectual property and then designing and selling back against our markets. And so that’s a situation. They’re so big and powerful and we have to figure out how to engage globally. And they’re all different thoughts about how to push back and how to get to a different level of. I’ll call it detente. But it’s very complex in the rate of technology change and adoption and access is exacerbating that situation.

Karissa Breen [00:23:02]:
So going back to your comment before around work ethic, does it concern you that the next sort of generation may not want to take up careers in the government? Government. Now what I’m finding when it’s younger, I’m a millennial. But even the, you know, the Gen Zs and the folks below me, et cetera and the new kids up and coming, their sort of typical job is like I want to be a YouTuber, a TikToker. Whilst there’s nothing wrong with that for someone who works in modern media, it’s just. Does that concern you a little bit that we may not have the right people, maybe a deficit of people to be able to protect the nation, like moving forward like the next five, ten years?

George Barnes [00:23:37]:
Most definitely. I mean we need to continue to expose our children to the opportunity for service because that brings a gratification. You know, I use the example of our daughter who’s in service in national security and she has friends that are working jobs fully remote, getting paid a lot more than she is, and they basically don’t do much work because the technologies for monitoring how much you do that’s outcome based are still evolving. And I know a lot of companies have had to develop technologies to see if their personnel are actually working. And there’s working from the standpoint of okay, my head, my am I engaged with my computer vice working that it’s actually turning into something meaningful and profitable. And so they’re all different ways to look at that. But I see just through talking to our daughter and her social network this broad spectrum of the drive for part of this fear of missing out. But there’s a part of society that just wants to drive for continuous intensity in your senses.

George Barnes [00:24:46]:
And so travel and all kinds of things and others, you know, they’re less patient to like build and wait and I won’t say earn their vacations, but they want to be doing it all the time. So a lot of people nowadays because of ever since COVID people have been freed from the office. You know, if you have a laptop and Internet, you’re good and that’s great. I leverage it. But that combined with challenges and work ethic and challenges with being connected to the entity for whom you’re working or serving, those create challenges. And so I think there’s less loyalty to companies because people don’t really know their companies. They’re on the other end of a spigot from their apartment or their cabin or wherever they are. And so their loyalty is to themselves.

George Barnes [00:25:29]:
The neat thing about working for the government is, yes, you have to take care of your own career, but you get swept up into this broader purpose, this drive for outcomes that basically backstop are our liberal democracies that we have in our countries and of course, in the US The Constitution rings just loud and clear. And I have a copy of it sitting in my office here. Just because there’s so much there that we have stood for and stand for and need to continue to push in the world that just talks about human liberty. Right. And we can’t take that for granted. And so when you work for the government, especially in national security and defense and those types of things, but not strictly those, you feel that sense of being on that team that’s taking that ball down the field and keeping it in play for good. Right. And so I was propelled, our daughter was propelled.

George Barnes [00:26:19]:
My wife was a Marine. So our whole family comes from the standpoint of service to our nation. Our daughter didn’t get drilled to do it. She came around to do it on her own. You know, she went to industry first because the money was great, but she gave up 40% of her salary after two years to come into the government. And why did she do that? Because she wanted and she felt this need to do something bigger than herself and to have a sense of doing something nobody else can do. I can go work at TikTok and I can write code. Well, so can a thousand other people.

George Barnes [00:26:48]:
And that can be great if you’re into code writing, but what’s the purpose of its use? Right? And so it’s got to be, what’s that next dimension beyond the specific thing you’re doing? How does it play into something that matters and affects people across the world? And so that’s where government service gives you those opportunities, as well as supporting the government, as I mentioned before, you can work in industry and be totally tight with government. And that’s one of the things that I think is really important these days, because nowadays in national security and intelligence, there are a lot of things that are out in industry that didn’t used to be. And so when I was Coming along, a lot of the things we were pursuing technologically, they only had one market, big data analytics, for understanding what’s happening in the world that could be dangerous for our security. Well, now there are all types of outcomes that those same analytics can be used for in industry in the commercial sense. And so we need industry to be side saddle, part and parcel with the government so that the best solutions are brought to bear for national security as well as for the commercial pursuits. That wasn’t the case when I came along as much. And you see now this push to bring innovation into the government. You know, there’s a big push in the current administration to change the acquisition framework to make it more amenable for startups, for emerging tech to come in and have a role and to do it more quickly and seamlessly.

George Barnes [00:28:15]:
That’s needed. Incredibly, because the information age is different from building aircraft carriers, right? Aircraft carriers are extremely sophisticated, takes several years, whereas look how fast AI has changed the world. It’s been like a year or two since November of 22 when ChatGPT hit the world. And you look back now and you can’t imagine it not being there. That is extremely fast. And so we’ve got to understand that and engage it. And so industry’s got to have a role, working with government for the best solutions.

Karissa Breen [00:28:45]:
And one of my observations as you were talking is the loyalty towards companies and people like individuals, that loyalty towards themselves. I have noticed that. One thing I’ve also observed is like maybe lack of like community. I know you said you from like a rural town when you grew up, but one thing that was even like, I don’t know when I was like growing up was like if you ran out of like sugar, you go next door and ask the neighbor. People just wouldn’t do that nowadays. It’d be really a foreign, weird, creepy thing to do. So do you think just the way in which unfortunately people are quite polarized now. You know, people get different beliefs and therefore they don’t want to see it as like a human to a human that has driven a lot of people away from public service, would you say?

George Barnes [00:29:24]:
I’m just thinking there’s a lot there because I think about community and when I grew up you had smaller houses and bigger yards and nowadays the houses take up the yard because everybody comes into the garage, into their house. They’re totally connected to their family and to their networks and the neighbors. That’s like, well, I might know who they are, I might not. And so we live a very different life in general. Now and of course in rural America and rural areas that’s still more community oriented. But I, it’s unfortunate. And so that is a migration of how we engage, which I think hurts us from a standpoint of, on the one hand we’re very connected, but on the other hand we don’t get those ad hoc little things. And I’m, I’m lucky because I live in a semi rural area.

George Barnes [00:30:10]:
So I, I end up talking to my neighbors across the horse fence and we would lean on each other and we do. But that’s more, more and more rare.

Karissa Breen [00:30:18]:
Yeah. So I think just to extend on that a little bit more would just be like, do you think that’s being a deterrent because of just how we are nowadays? That’s rare. Do you think that’s been a deterrent then to sort of like people taking up careers in like public service and how do we get them back there then?

George Barnes [00:30:32]:
Yeah, I, I think my experience, and I don’t know the current stats, but my experience was When I left NSA two years ago, we had, I don’t know, 80 to 100,000 applicants a year. People wanted to come in. And, you know, I talked to my former Boston colleague, General Paul Nakasone, and he’s involved down at the Vanderbilt University in Tennessee with the National Security Institute and the whole idea in these institutes. And I support the Virginia Tech National Security Institute and those types of places. And so my point is academia has a role in exposing children to the bigger picture. And you see a lot of universities that continue to get a lot of following by kids who want to serve. I mean, I even have had interns at my current company, Red Cell Partners, and they come in and we’re building startups for commercial, but also for national security. And I have mentoring sessions with them and, and they just, they’re trying, they’re working through college, but they asked me all about this government service thing because it’s something that many of them.

George Barnes [00:31:44]:
I had one last year. You know, her family was this, it was a Navy lineage. And, you know, There were Navy SEALs in her family and she just, she didn’t know what she was going to do. And ultimately she ended up working for Dell when she graduated. But she was driven to do something that mattered. And, and I know that her exposure to us and her exposure mostly to her family is going to guide her path. Right. And so I think it does start a lot with family, but not strictly.

George Barnes [00:32:12]:
And that’s the nice thing about a lot of these universities that are trying to expose kids you know, I’ve gone several times to UT Austin. There’s a intelligence studies program that I found for day to time and spoken and met with the kids and it’s just so gratifying. And they’re very inquisitive and they know, you know, the ones, especially in the technical degrees, they could go off and make a lot more money, but they’re looking for something that matters. They’re looking for purpose. And so I think that’s something the government can bring and of course industry can bring it as well. But there’s just something I used to tell people in the government, who else has your job? You know, and it’s very. Most everybody I knew, their job was very unique in some way. And not just unique in the government, but unique in the country or the world.

George Barnes [00:32:59]:
Right. And so that gives people a very special feeling of having the ability to have an impact that matters. Touching things that have relevance and not just being. Feeling like they’re on an assembly line. Yeah.

Karissa Breen [00:33:12]:
And then would you say it’s a fair assumption. And I know you mentioned at the start that the public sector just gives you something different than the private sector. Do you think that’s a lot by purpose and you know, the greater mission? Would you say you just can’t maybe not all the time get in the private sector?

George Barnes [00:33:27]:
Right. Most definitely. And this is where, you know, my daughter’s case in point. I mean, she was in the private sector, but she was working with a company that had development contracts for the government. And so she was connected, but it was a couple steps away from touching the act. And so she wanted to be closer to the mission that the way the technology was being used and that’s what she ended up doing. And so I think this whole thing about, number one, having any connection to it gives a feeling of purpose. But various people are drawn to be closer and closer or be like right there.

George Barnes [00:34:02]:
Right. And that’s where, you know, in my career I was just so fortunate because I was like in the room, they call it. You know, there’s a book about that being in the room. I’ve been in the middle of lots of things in my career. You know, when I was deputy director, I was on the deputies committee for the national security apparatus in our country. And so I was in the White House all the time as the interagency’s construct. There was deliberating on security strategy, situations in the world, our policies on how to deal with them. And so I was bringing the perspective of what my agency’s mission was.

George Barnes [00:34:36]:
To that discussion. So I was not generating policy, I was creating, providing data to inform policymaking. But I was sitting right there, part and parcel to those discussions and seeing that process play out. It was very meaningful. I mean, to be in the middle of those types of things, to watch what happened when Russia invaded Ukraine and the whole ramp up to that. I was very proud that the intelligence community provided awareness and insight and even timing of that event before it happened. And it just was very intense to know that you were in the middle of something that mattered so greatly. And that happened multiple times in my career.

George Barnes [00:35:14]:
And, you know, I was involved in making things happen, so wars never happened. And that was just a major wonderful feeling. Right. Saving lives. Saving lives as our service people, our men and women dedicated to their country, living out forward in harm’s way and providing intel that kept them from dying was just like, there’s nothing that replaces that feeling. Especially when somebody lives to come back. And thank you is so powerful that you just. I’m shivering just thinking about it because I just.

George Barnes [00:35:43]:
I remember that happening multiple times. And so that’s just something that you can’t replicate very easily.

Karissa Breen [00:35:50]:
Yeah, Well, I love that. And I can hear it in your voice that, you know, you are driven by that mission. And I said that at the top of this call. I can sense that. And it means a lot for you to come on and share your thoughts and your experiences and inspire the next, you know, people currently work in industry or, you know, other people that want to sort of transfer. So I was really. Yeah, I was really moved by that. So thank you.

George Barnes [00:36:09]:
No, thank you. I just really love the opportunity. And, you know, as I’ve learned coming out of an industry on purpose, I’ve dumped back and I’m engaged with young people, which really drives and energizes me. And just seeing. Helping people pick their path and find ways to do things that matter, that’s just so important. It’s not just about making money. It’s about, yes, having a comfortable life, if you can. But in the end, it’s doing things that matter and helping people have a better life.

George Barnes [00:36:39]:
And so what better motivation could you have?

Karissa Breen [00:36:41]:
So then, George, my final question to you would be, if we were to zoom out of our conversation, I know we’ve gone quite detailed. What do you think sort of moving forward for the industry? Whether that’s, you know, for defense, for governments, for the private public sector, like, what. What are you thinking?

George Barnes [00:36:57]:
The first thing that pops in my mind, of course, is this journey in artificial intelligence. Right. Because it is so monumental is dramatically changing how we operate in the world, how we connect with technology and the rate of change is something we could never have predicted and it’s accelerating. I’ve been through lots of different step changes in technology and there’s nothing like this that’s happened in my lifetime to date. And so I think that is going to be the continued story of the coming year as society engages leverages, but then also tries to manage the power of this technology. And it’s multifaceted, it’s societal. It’s not just like buying an app and using tech because the fact that these technologies are taking on right now teaming with humans as opposed to being just subordinate to humans, but now we’re actually dealing with very high and I think real probability that we will have the beginnings of this AGI thing. People talk about artificial general intelligence where you know, machines can take on more autonomy.

George Barnes [00:38:08]:
And so I’ve been in discussions about that lately and the technology is going to bring us to that juncture and so we have to be thinking about what that means and having discussions about, you know, how do you instill values in an AI system? You know, and so, and how do you actually decide where human society is in guiding and controlling autonomous systems? And so I think we’re on the precipice of having to deal with the societal ramifications of technology that is so powerful that we haven’t really thought about that this stuff before. And that’s going to be coming at us next year right around the corner.